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September 30, 2006

Comments

Mike Cunningham

For a definitive gaze at the true crime statistic of the New South Africa, try This site or even This one

The Reverend hasn't improved from the days when I met him, he was a puffed-up prat then, and he hasn't improved with age!

David Vance

Thanks for the links Mike - I will add to new ATW blogroll.

Peter

Hey, it would be much better if the apartheid regime was still in power, wouldn't it? At least they kept the crime rates down.

No doubt the ANC regime isn't perfect. But it didn't come out of a vacuum. To say that 100 years of apartheid has nothing to do with the present crimewave is fantasy. If majority rule had been established when it should have been, many of the present problems could have been avoided.

Peter T

The trouble is I cannot think of any African Country which is better governed than in Colonial times. How can we reconcile this with the legitimate desire of African Countries to govern themselves?

aileen

Peter

David has said Apartheid was wrong.

I'm not in a position to know what exactly the legarcy of that is and I would be surprised if there were many who were.

daytripper

The trouble is I cannot think of any African Country which is better governed than in Colonial times. How can we reconcile this with the legitimate desire of African Countries to govern themselves?

a good start would be to try and not sound like a white supremacist. and admit that colonialism was merely replaced with neo-colonialism. white rulers may have departed but white control of national resources remained and still does, to this day.

Peter T

Daytripper,

Instead of suggesting that I sound like a white supremacist please indicate which African Country is better governed today than it was in colonial times. It won't be Zimbabwe, Uganda, Sierra Leone etc. and where is the evidence that white control of national resources is a factor in Zimbabwe's decline?

Mike Cunningham

Peter T.

The list of countries as queried would be very short indeed, as it would start with

Number One......!!

Let's face it, the whole African bunch squeezed together couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, so how can they be expected to run a bloody country?

AIDs, disease and starvation are the only common currencies, violence and corruption their answer to all problems, and as for the Rule of Law; The only Law is that of the bullet, not the Ballot!

As I have posted before, the money poured into Africa for a multitude of reasons is simply money wasted; and we should resolutely state that they should mend their own fences, sort their own problems out, and if they fail, well, it surely isn't our problem!

andy

I read somewhere that just after the Korean war, south korean had the same average gdp as an average african nation. In the fifty-odd years since, it has received nowhere like the aid african countries had, lead a predominantly free-trade based economy but achieved success wildly exceeding that of any african country.
I know there are elements of the s. korean economy that were centralised, and they got some money from the Americans, but I still think the example stands.
Aid simply hasn't worked in africa. The faults there are more to do with local corruption then neo-coloniasm - think of what all the billions nabbed by the last few rulers of Nigeria could have achieved there, for example.

Allan@Aberdeen

"a good start would be to try and not sound like a white supremacist. and admit that colonialism was merely replaced with neo-colonialism. white rulers may have departed but white control of national resources remained and still does, to this day."

I'll comment on the above (from Daytripper) with an example which typifies African incompetence. Nigreia's oil is exploited by western companies (mainly Shell). Shell gets the oil out of the ground, builds the infrastructure to transport it, and, on point of export, pays the prevailing market or agreed price ofr the oil. The money goes to dedicated accounts nominated by Nigerian governmental oil interests - and then??
Well, it doesn't go to the Nigerian people as a whole. It is looted, pilfered, and filched by a Nigerian clique. This clique could be easily overthrown by the west and a system imposed which ensures more equitable and worthy distribution of Nigeria's oil wealth. But guess who would object? Who would be shouting 'colonialism' and 'imperialism'? People like daytripper. The hypocrisy of such people is breath-taking, but not surprising.

Justin

Well too be fair.. there are a few bright spots like Botswana. Nonetheless, why are so many of these African countries unstable? Most of them are not even 5 decades into existance. My county (the USA) was still a mess and not truly a democracy 5 decades into its existance. It didn't help that many of these countries didn't have strong civil society backgrounds. Part of that was cultural/historical, part of that was the europeans only elevating certain people and then pitting them against other Africans. Additionally both the United States and USSR funded and supported dictators that suited their political needs. Mobutu Sesoko was the first man to visit the George Bush white house for a state visit in 1988. This man robbed his people blind and created a propaganda campaign of totalitarianist drivel that even put Goebels to shame. Disgusting isn't it, but the Bush white house saw him as a friend. Of course we can throw the French in here as well as they supported butchers such as Jean-Bodel Bokasssa. Then there is the impotent African Union which was often a dictators club. South Africa is still one of the best countries in the continent in terms of economy, and maybe that speaks about how bad things are elsewhere. Corruption is rampant amongst regimes who often had no accountability, and could very easily get money from the west. But that does not means things were better governed in colonial times, it was just different shades of inhumanity. Tyrants come in all skin tones.

aileen

We haven't a totally clean record re those we have befriended as part of our foreign policy.

Justin

True, Great Britain also has a dodgy record. I was speaking most about the Americans since I am from the States, but there is no shortage of blame to go around when it comes to the reasons why tyrants in Africa have stayed in power.

aileen

Justin

"True, Great Britain also has a dodgy record. "

Who did you think I meant by "We" in my post.

The "We" was the UK.

Cunningham


Aileen, such decisions are made by governments, and UK governments are made up of parties only from Britain. NI is on the sideline looking on, so to speak, cheering and cursing perhaps, but unable to do anything.

Hopefully that will soon change and NI will have some kind of representation that, if not make a difference, then at least make a decision.

(BTW: my remark yesterday about "loud and clear and strong" was in response to your clarification that your sentence was perhaps not clear. I liked the sincerety in that sentence and wanted to reassure you that, as usual with sincere statements, it's messasge had come over clear and strong.)

aileen

Cunningham

Justin said


"True, Great Britain also has a dodgy record. "

I assume if he thought that I was speaking from NI and was of your opinon he would not have used the "also". I was wondering if he thought that I was American.

Re your point, even if I was living in NI, it is still my country and "we" would fit. Living in London, I have a vote here, which I sometimes use.

Re the other point, thank you. I thought that that might be what you meant but as so much of my sincerly expressed beliefs are engender a totally different reaction from you, I'm afraid I was reluctant to presume. I never know when I am dealing with Dr Jeckell or My Hyde and I suspect that there are actually two of you that use the same name.


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