Given the ongoing revelations that even more Sinn Fein representatives were present in Maginnis's bar on the night when Robert McCartney was murdered, I am now of the opinion this must have been an unofficial Ard Fheis! It seems the bar was packed with Sinn Feiners and Provos! How interesting that one finds brutal murderers and Sinn Feins sharing so much time together! They go together like a horse and carriage, it appears.
As you probably know David that bar is extremely republican in nature and if you are not a recognised one of them you better not be there. Obviously now it doesnt matter if you are one of them - its still dangerous.
Again another side note its where students from the Holylands get drink after all the bars are closed and the parties are starting.
Posted by: Michael | March 15, 2005 at 04:37 PM
I read last week that the bar owners showed total disrespect for the murdered man:
1. They opened the next morning as usual.
2. They stayed open during the funeral.
3. They didn't send a wreath.
Posted by: Peter | March 15, 2005 at 08:28 PM
As you probably know David that bar is extremely republican in nature and if you are not a recognised one of them you better not be there.
I didn't know that. It must have changed in recent years. I was in it the odd time a few years ago and it was just like any other city centre bar.
Posted by: willowfield | March 16, 2005 at 08:39 AM
Michael and Peter,
Fascinating insights.
Posted by: David Vance | March 16, 2005 at 08:51 AM
Michael
I have never heard of students from the holylands drinking there and I live in the holylands, are you sure this information is accurate?
Posted by: Chris Gaskin | March 16, 2005 at 09:59 PM
They don't drink there but they do get drink there (or they did when I was a student). You went to the side door, knocked, and they let in a couple of people at a time, sold them drink and sent them on their way. Its been approx 5 yrs since I done this last but yeah drink was got there.
They were also the ones, I believe, that started up dial-a-drink where you phoned up, placed an order for alcohol (overpriced eg a pound a can or more) and they sent it to you in a taxi (which you also paid). There was a rumour that you could (maybe in the far past) order drugs this way. I dont know if thats true as I only heard it as a rumour.
As for actually sitting inside and drinking there - no way. I once went in on a wednesday afternoon to have a pint and read a book (it was close to the apt) and all of a sudden you got these questions "who are you? what are you doing here?" etc. I didnt mind getting the hell out of their and going someplace else.
A dodgy dodgy place
Posted by: Michael | March 16, 2005 at 10:23 PM
I have heard of places doing dial-a-drink services but it does seem awful far to go for drink after hours, surely there are closer places than that.
Posted by: Chris Gaskin | March 16, 2005 at 10:31 PM
A killing ground.
Posted by: David Vance | March 16, 2005 at 10:36 PM
Still nothing more than suggestion and innuendo David.
Any murder is wrong, this was commited by members of the IRA (alledgedly) not by the IRA. You may not be aligned to a party but you obviously have a unionist agenda and your clear support for the terrorist state of Israel speaks volumes.
Where's this universal condemnation you talked of ? Like many others you are using this tragedy and the McCartney family as a stick to beat all republicans.
Posted by: David Rees | March 17, 2005 at 09:33 AM
Ok 1)If you are making assumptions about the caliber of the people in the bar being murderous thugs, are you implying that as Mr McCartney was in the bar he is one also?
2)All these cries for the Shinners to come forward, WHERE IS BRENDAN DEVINE? - Surely this man, who is known to have been at the scene of the killing, and who was alledged to have told the McCartney sisters he could identify the killers should have given a comprehensive statment to the police?
3) This all smacks of a concerted attempt to attack Sinn Fein prior to an election, (no I do not support SF, but I do not believe in trial by media)
Posted by: Frankie | March 17, 2005 at 12:19 PM
"This all smacks of a concerted attempt to attack Sinn Fein prior to an election, (no I do not support SF, but I do not believe in trial by media).
Couple of genuine questions to Frankie
1.Does the core SF voter care what the media says about their party(or what their party and its armed wing gets up to, come to that)?
2.If SF loses support amongst the uncommitted will it be because the Nationalist electorate are stupid enough to be hoodwinked by the media or because the voters are unhappy with the direction the Republican movement is taking?
Posted by: Hypocrisy is the Greatest Luxury | March 17, 2005 at 12:34 PM
The brutal fact, for friends of Sinn Fein, is that a brutal murder DID occur in or beside the bar. 70 people were present but no one saw anything. Therefore it IS a killing ground. Through the looking glass - very darkly.
"The terrorist state of Israel" yip, that tells us where David is coming from. Next time one of those Palestinian shahids blows apart more innocent Israelis-I'll have to remember that the Israelis are to blame, eh?
There is a genealogy of terror - it runs from Hitler's Brownshirts, through Arafats goon squad, to Sinn Fein/IRA. All scum - and all need to be history.
Posted by: David Vance | March 17, 2005 at 12:37 PM
I would imagine that the core SF voter will believe what Mr Adam et al will tell them. The more hardline/militant Republican will be more likely to rebel against the recent toadying of the provisonal movement to the British establishment.
I personally believe that the floating SDLP/SF supporter will react to the hype in the media and the current attempt to pressure SF by the Americans. I would imagine that they will be quick to believe the Unionist approach to 'mainstream' Republicans - i.e. that they are all supporters of violence and vote the way the British are attempting to manipulate them.
MR VANCE "that a brutal murder DID occur in or beside the bar. 70 people were present but no one saw anything." - Are you saying that 70 people were inside AND out side the bar. Thank you for giving a sterotypical (hysterotypical!) kneejerk unionist/SDLP reaction to what essentially is a bar brawl that is being used to whip Republicans.
Posted by: Frankie | March 17, 2005 at 03:44 PM
Frankie
I am not a unionist by any length of the imagination and even I can see that what is being said is not all that has gone on. Are you trying to say that 70 people in a bar, especially with the layout of Maginnis's, didn't notice a fight. When a fight breaks out people are attracted to it even if only to the extent of turning their head around and looking at it. Its an automatic attraction. So the fact that 70 people not coming forward could be because of a couple of reasons -
1. Maybe these 70 people only ever saw the backs of the heads of those involved (extremely unlikely)
2. Maybe they were told not to say anything (possibility)
3. Maybe they dont want to put themselves in a position of danger or media attention (maybe)
4. They dont care (must be true for some)
All in all moe is going on than is being admitted. To blindy believe what yo are being told is to act like a child being given information by a parent. To question and seek some form of answer is an adult way to approach this.
Oh yeah a bar brawl ending in the savage (and yes this word is appropriate) beating and murder of a person is not just a bar brawl. A bloody nose, a black eye and at the extreme possibly a broken bone are elements of abar brawl but murder isn't.
You do make a good pointthough in relation Brendan Devine - why isn't he coming forward?
Posted by: Michael | March 17, 2005 at 04:33 PM
David.
You said ... ""The terrorist state of Israel" yip, that tells us where David is coming from. Next time one of those Palestinian shahids blows apart more innocent Israelis-I'll have to remember that the Israelis are to blame, eh?"
OK so you think 2 wrongs = 1 right ? Suicide bombings are the act of a people with no other means of fighting their war, yes it's terrible that innocent people suffer, but to react to such atrocities by attacking refugee camps full of innocents (not exclusively granted) with helicopter gunships and US sponsored military hardware is just as obscene. Surely you can concede this.
Why are the occupied territories so called ?
Please show some balance David or you and your Tangled Web loses credibility.
Posted by: David Rees | March 17, 2005 at 04:34 PM
I thought I'd read somewhere that Brendan Devine had given a statement. As to why there've been no arrests yet, I'll admit to not being up to speed on the nature of the legal system over there, but it would seem to me that 70+ potential witnesses who won't talk to you is a bomb waiting to go off. (Figuratively speaking, of course.) You make the arrest based on Devine, and only Devine's statement, then suddenly two dozen people come forward and contradict him? That's a result I can easily foresee, since it has the added bonus of making everything the police's fault, while letting the killers off the hook (again, assuming the existence of something like the U.S.' double jeopardy protection. My apologies if this isn't the case.)
This should be cut and dried. When you count the people who were not only in a position to see something, but hear something as well, either statements from involved parties, etc., there are more than enough witnesses to provide a clear picture of what happened, and who should be held accountable. That this hasn't happened yet suggests several possibilities, but the most likely are either a.) witnesses are being intimidated, or b.) witnesses are willing participants in a coverup.
Posted by: Gib | March 21, 2005 at 06:37 PM