A Great Day to be English

It's come around again.  Today is Saint Patrick's Day and all the world is supposed to celebrate.  The legend goes that people around the globe - from the Inuits to the ape creatures of the Indus - will be sporting shamrocks, drinking Guinness and generally adopting the same level of shallow outward persona we've all come to expect from the people who inhabit the country to which these disparate tribes pay homage.

There is something very wrong with a country that, on the inside, has such a pathetically poor belief in its standing in the world that it has to encourage the rest of us to celebrate its Patron Saint.  Each and every Irishman seems to want to believe that the Irish as a whole are loved by everyone.  Strange really that, in my working experience, individuals who display a similar trait are either manic depressives or victims of child abuse.

Next month I will be attending the St George's Day parade in Kirkby Lonsdale.  Increasing recognition of our patron saint has been a feature of live in England ever since we were cursed with Caledonian rule courtesy of a grossly imbalanced constitutional settlement provided, of course, by New Labour.  Even if April 23rd becomes a major day of celebration here, I cannot see we English wanting to cheapen its impact by exporting it around the world to become nothing more than a day of excessive cultural ersatzness.  Some may say it is because the English on the whole are much more prim and proper than their Irish counterparts.  I would contend that greatness doesn't have to be trumpeted from the rooftops.  In other words, when all the pathetic Hibernian burlesqueness has dissipated, we will still be left with a country which is a bit-player in world affairs; a country that could only manage to stand on its own two feet after years of unabated European fiscal generosity; a country that sullies its own integrity by wanting to steal the territory of a neighbouring state; and a country which sits on the sidelines of every major international conflict.

Some may find the general celebration of such poor standards hugely enticing.  I pity their scleroticity.

Comments

[Colm]

Andrew

'scleroticity'

Your continued lexicographical education of ATW readers is a credit to you.

re the thread above - You certainly won't like using Google today then.

I say chill out , relax. Crack (craic?) open a bottle of non-alcoholic Guinness (I know your views on the demon drink) do a little Irish jig and go with the shamrock flow.

Cheers

[Libero]

So the Irish have a "shallow outward persona"? LOL... take a look in the mirror, mate.

"Each and every Irishman seems to want to believe that the Irish as a whole are loved by everyone."
No we don't. We are happy to be snootily disliked by Englishmen, who can only watch as we breeze by in terms of income and living standards. Not to mention actually being liked by the rest of the world (but that's just a bonus).

"wanting to steal the territory of a neighbouring state" You should read the Good Friday Agreement, especially the bit on consent. The Republic's old claim over Northern Ireland has been abandoned, you know.

As for being a bit player in world affairs, that's what a population of less than 4 million tends to imply.

*Sigh* Old tory englishness is so sclerotic

[Andrew McCann]

1. Breeze by the English in terms of living standards? I don't think so!! You know full well much of the wealth made in the Republic is spent elsewhere. Your country has been a parasite in the EU and only the accession of former communist states has lessened that impact.

2. Show me an Irishman with sincerity and I'll show you a bottle of Boudicea's favourite perfume.

3. The Republic abandoned a meaningless claim it could not fulfil in exchange for real power in relation to Northern Ireland. The Paddy commitment to the 'consent principle' is a hollow sham, as has been proven time and time again.

Show

[Scouseproud]

Originally the Border was ratified by both the British parliament and the then Free State parliament in 1925. The finality of the agreement then emphasised that it was intended to "remove causes of friction, further friendly relations and peaceful co existence" The political parties in the south disowned this act by its own parliament, encouraging the formation of what were to become "private armies".

[Scouseproud]

Origially the Border was ratified by both the British parliament and the then Free State parliament in 1925. The finality of the agreement then emphasised that it was intended to "remove causes of friction, further friendly relations and peaceful co existence" The political parties in the south disowned this act by its own parliament, encouraging the formation of what were to become "private armies".

[joc]

Andrew,

Couldn't resist sharing this one with you:

Once upon a time in the kingdom of Heaven, God went missing for seven days.
Eventually, Michael the archangle found him. He inquired of God, "where were you?".

God sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards

through the clouds; "look son, look what I'm after making".

Archangle Michael looked puzzled and said, "what is it?"

God replied, "it's another planet but I'm after putting LIFE on it. I've named it Earth

and there's going to be a balance between everything on it.

For example, there's north America and south America. North America

is going to be rich and south America is going to be poor, and the

narrow bit joining them - that's going to be a hot spot. Now look over

here. I've put a continent of whites in the north and another one of

blacks in the south.

And then the archangle said, "and what's that green dot there?". And

God said "ahhh that's the Emerald Isle - that's a very special place.

That's going to be the most glorious spot on earth; Beautiful

mountains, lakes, rivers, streams, and an exquisite coast line. These

people here are going to be great craic and they're going to be found

traveling the world. They'll be playwrights and poets and singers and

songwriters. And I'm going to give them this black liquid which

they're going to go mad on and for which people will come from the far

corners of the earth to imbibe.

Michael the Archangle gasped in wonder and admiration but then

seeming startled proclaimed: "Hold on a second, what about the

BALANCE, you said there was going to be a balance...

God replied wisely.

"Wait until you see the neighbours I'm going to give them"

[Siobhán Ní Deorain]

This has got to be Mr. McCann's most pathetic and childish post ever.

Of course the Republic is a bit player in world affairs. The population is less than 4 million! What is the population of the UK?

I wonder how Northern Ireland would do without the help of Westminster, hmm?

Come to NI and enjoy: The most racist city on Earth.

One of the most messed up, segregated societies in the world. Inept and immature politicians. UDA and IRA love fests. Ridiculous 'marches'.

You keep NI. I don't want anything to do with it.

Irish people are well liked overall. Deal with it. You're just coming across like a bitter old English fart.

[Madradin Ruad]

Come to NI and enjoy: The most racist city on Earth.

Bollix.

[Paul]

Siobhan,
"Irish people are well liked overall"
Well, they like to think so anyway-bit difficult to prove one way or the other. The Irish investors who are exploiting the property markets and the cheap labour in the EU Accession states are certainly not flavour of the month at the minute in some countries,for example.

And you have kind of proved one of Andrew's points,there is an element of insecurity(or perhaps inferiority complex?) with a lot of Irish people-a bit of criticism and the immediate knee-jerk reaction is to slag off the UK.

Be proud of your country's achievements, and don't be so touchy, otherwise you come across as a bitter Irish reactionary;)

[Colm]

Paul

In many ways I admire Andrew and indeed share many of his views on thie world we live in, but his views on the Irish are his 'Achilles heel' in my opinion. Perfectly valid loathing of the activities of Sinn Fein/IRA is one thing. Extending that to hating everything 'green' is another.

Why Andrew should resent the St Patrick's day festivities is beyond me, as indeed is your objection to the view that Irish people are well liked. Such feelings demonstrate an insecurity and inferiority complex on behalf of those who hold them , yourself included.

[slackjaw]

'The Irish investors who are exploiting the property markets and the cheap labour in the EU Accession states are certainly not flavour of the month at the minute in some countries,for example.'

Good point, but on the other hand, it's only important because it conflicts with Ireland's dream of itself. Outside of that, it's no real indicator of something inherent in the dreaded 'Irishness'.

I personally couldn't give a toss if Irish people are well-liked or not. They are no better and no worse than people from anywhere else.

Anyone who blows their own trumpet about the greatness of their own nation these days is a bit of a tool, in my opinion. It's all a load of shite, lads.

[slackjaw]

From Hugo of St. Victor, a twelfth century monk from Saxony (via Edward Said):

‘The person who finds his homeland sweet is still a tender beginner; he to whom every soil is as his native one is already strong; but he is perfect to whom the entire world is as a foreign place. The tender soul has fixed his love on one spot in the world; the strong person has extended his love to all places; the perfect man has extinguished his.’

Hard to argue with that.

[Paul]

Colm,
I wouldn't say that I object to the view that the Irish are well-liked,but in the past,I feel it was partly an image built up by the Irish and the diaspora themselves to compensate for the fact that there wasn't much else to boast about,economically or otherwise in the early years of the state.

It's true that yesterday we saw outbursts of green all over the world but how much of that is due to marketing(I would like to see Guinness's sales figures for the 17th),the world-wide desire for a good old piss-up or how much of it is an appreciation of the Irish as a people, I don't know.

Personally, I admire what the Republic has achieved, but if there is one thing that I agree with Andrew on, it's that many Irish still carry a chip on their shoulder about the UK and any criticism is met with comparisons, rather than proving their argument with facts and figures about what their country has accomplished.

[David Vance]

joc,

Excellent!

[Young Irelander]

I figured Andrew might have something to say about Paddy's Day.Personally, I don't think Irish people should be blamed about the fact that the English choose to place more emphasis on Ireland's patron saint as opposed to their own.I met a couple from England yesterday, from Lancaster, who were perfectly friendly and said they enjoyed their day.What's wrong with that?

[Colm]

Paul

Surely it is natural for Irish people like Siobhan to want to respond to sweeping negative characterisations as indulged in by Andrew. It hardly implies a chip on their shoulder - a refernece BTW that is often used to deride people considered to be 'getting above theuir station'.

I think the analysis that the Irish promoted this cheery loveable view of themselves to the world as compensation for other failures is just rubbish. No group of Irish people or genration of them sat down and methodically worked out how to generate a global 'we love the Irish' campaign. For well-known historic reasons the Irish have largely been an emigrant community creating possibly the worlds single largest Diaspora . The importance attached to celebrating St Patricks day is just an element of the perfectly natural desire to remember national roots. There is nothing cynical or planned about it. The fact that many non-Irish people choose to join in is not the result of being 'press-ganged' into it , it's just one of those things.

Stop trying to read deep seated national psychological reasons for the phenomenon that is paddies day or political manipulation behind the stereotypical world view of cheery dancing fun filled boozy leprachauns. There is no specific reason . They just happened as an accident of history and as part of the rich tapestry of national differences that enliven our planet.

[Andrew McCann]

Hey listen people!!

There are some nations in the world I love and admire, and others I don't. Everybody has the same traits. Criticising the French, the Germans or, if you're a whinging Lefty, the Americans, is part of our human make-up.

I just happen to dislike the Irish. I think they are a shallow, insincere race on the whole (there are wonderful individuals as there are among all peoples). Get used to it. Siobhan's response classically illustrates my case in point. It's all very well for the Irish to make anti-Britishness/Englishness a cornerstone of their political culture - and indeed their culture in general - but they are unable to take reciprocity.

Must dash. My interview is at 2pm.

[Colm]

Andrew

Your wrong - but I still wish you well at the interview.

good luck

[Young Irelander]

Wouldn't it be funny if the guy interviewing Andrew turned out to be Irish?Oh, the irony!

[Colm]

Y.I.

Must admit I had the same thoughts - visions of our Andrew walking in to the interview , the board chairman says " Ah well hello there Mr McCann, my name is Seamus O Flaherty , I will be your new boss if you get this job. Please excuse my raspy voice today , overdid the singing and downing of the black stuff at the works Paddy's day party last night.......

Cue Andrew deciding he would rather remain in Halifax after all !

[Siobhán Ní Deorain]

Oh please.

My point is valid. And by the way, Belfast is indeed a very racist city.

Compare the population of the UK to that of the ROI. Which country is going to have more influence? Which country has been in existence longer? Let's not forget that the UK was the most powerful nation on Earth for quite some time. You make it sound like the ROI should be a major player. Yeah, so should Poland and Denmark.
Good grief.

Northern Ireland is not a normal place. Andrew and David know this. It has a society riddled with problems. You'll find plenty of more or less segregated neighbourhoods. IRA and UVF move freely. Idiotic politicians. Stupid parades. Andrew talks about the Republic leeching off of other countries...where would Northern Ireland be if it was independent? What about all the help from Westminster?

You are wrong if you think any of this is an anti-English/Anti-British rant. Besides, Andrew shouldn't whine about such things when his anti-Irish crap is simply pathetic. Fortunately, most people don't share such views. I don't dislike any nation. It's too bad you do but that's your problem. How cool it is to be un-PC. How cool it is to dump on the Irish. But Americans? Jews? British? NEVER!
You'll grow up eventually. You must be a young thirty-something.

Bottom line:

Northern Ireland is a sad, messed up place compared to the ROI. I want Northern Ireland to stay out.

I'm not some raving Irish patriot but I'm not going to let some twit talk bullshit about Ireland and the Irish people as a whole.

[Young Irelander]

If anyone's racist it is you Siobhan.You're embarrassing Irish people by talking bullshit about the North.Wise up.

[Siobhán Ní Deorain]

Don't play the Racist card with me YI.

Northern Ireland is a place with many problems facing it. There's no comparing the ROI and NI. Northern Ireland is not normal. Plenty of Irish people don't want anything to do with it. Let the British minority on the island have their wee 'Ulster'.

I haven't said anything remotely racist. Just because I don't want Northern Ireland to join the ROI
doesn't equate racism. I'm no unionist either btw.

Stating that Belfast has a high level of racists isn't racism either. Are you aware of what many visible minorities go through..esp. in Belfast? Are you aware of how many segregated schools there are? Do you have any idea what certain loyalist/republican neighbourhoods are like? Don't you realize how much control the IRA, UDA and UVF still exercise in certain parts of the island?

You'll notice that unlike Andrew, I don't dislike people from a certain region (NI) AS A WHOLE. I'm not weak-minded. I just don't want its problems and garbage getting mixed in with the ROI.

[Howard]

Siobhán Ní Deorain - welcome to the board. Interesting to get your new pov.

[David Vance]

Siobhan,

You are very welcome - but I beg to differ with you, as you may expect.

One thing that NI and ROI have in common is an underclass of voter who think it cool and trendy to vote for a Party of bankrobbers and killers. In my book, that's not normal.

I also pleased that you don't want NI to join the banana republic, nor do I.