APES AND PIGS?

Have a look at this and then remember - Islam is the religion of PEACE and LOVE. Just not in this universe....

Comments

[Cunningham]

This anti-Semitism is insane and disgusting.

Actually, I should say that in my time in the ME I've heard ever worse things said about the Jews!

It's a pity the video was cut off at the end. He said his project is to discover if this anti-Semitism among Arabs is a deliberate import from Europe and continuation of Hitler's policies. He didn't get near that and frankly I think anybody who believes it is paranoid.

He also never mentioned the very relevant point that anti-Semitism in Muslim lands wasn't nearly as strong before 1948 as it was afterwards. In fact for many centuries Jews were more welcome in the Middle East than they were in Europe.
The kind of brutal anti-Semitism he cites isn't any more inherent to Islam than genocide and mass murder is inherent to the Judeo-Christian tradition.

The problem, as usual, is political, and a political solution will some day remove it.

[David Vance]

Cunningham,

It's part of four, I just didn't want to deluge the site with video.

[Mr Smith]

"The problem, as usual, is political, and a political solution will some day remove it."

Yet that child said it's in the Koran, which is not only their holy book but, if I understand correctly, more or less a blueprint for their faith. If this is the case, then the problem is most certainly not political but religious.

>>it's in the Koran, which is not only their holy book but, if I understand correctly, more or less a blueprint for their faith. If this is the case, then the problem is most certainly not political but religious.<<

Wrong.

The Bible also contains all kinds of things, including exhortations to genocide and the massacre of your enemies' womenfolk, children, etc. Yes this book is also supposed to be a "blueprint" for all of the Judeo-Christian tradition.
It is as bad as the Koran in that respect.

But the fact is that people take what they want from all these books, depending on changing cultural, social and above all economic needs.

The problem is therefore, as I said, political.

And it will abate if political stability and economic prosperity come to the Middle East, and will probably continue until then.

[Cunningham]

Ooops, that was me.

So bloody hard to concentrate where there are much more important, and sweeter, things going on over at ON THE CATWALK!!

[Mr Smith]

Cunningham,

I suggest you begin cultivating a habit of reading before responding. I said 'that child says that it's in the Koran' I wasn't making the claim myself.

As to the pick'n'mix approach to religion, you're not serious, are you?

[Ernest Young]

I think the anti semitism in the ME is more culture based than politics based. Evidence of such hatred going back almost a hundred years. And as Cunningham states, the Koran and the Bible both contain exhortations to murder and other mayhem, and people cherry-pick what they want to justiy their personal hatreds.

Classing the problem as political is paving the way for yet another of those diplomatic solutions that were at the root of the problem in the first place.

The connections between the Nazis and Islam go a long way back to the early twentieth century, with strong connections between the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazis, dating back pre-1930.

In the light of those events it is easy to see how Ahmejihad can stand before a world audience and deny that there ever was a Holocaust. It has always been, 'just business as usual', for most Arabs.

'The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and advisor of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan....He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures."
Dieter Wisliceny: Eichmann Aide'

[Allan@Aberdeen]

Cunningham fails to grasp the fact that, for a muslim, the koran is the faultless, immutable word of allah (the moon-god) and cannot be changed nor be open to interpretation - it is what it says.
On the other hand, the Bible is a narrative and is not considered to be perfect by Christians because it was recorded by Man, and Man is not perfect.
Given the first sentence, it is clear that hatred of Jews and Christians as invoked in the koran is allah's will, and there is no negotiation with that.

[Peter]

All religions tend to produce division and hatred. The sickening anti-semitism on view with these islamic fanatics is reminiscent of the hatred for Jews in christian medieval Europe, including England, which led to numerous pogroms and expulsions over the centuries (especially Tsarist Russia in the 1890's) and which formed the cultural backdrop to the Holocaust itself.

That's religion for you.

[Allan@Aberdeen]

But surely the capacity for belief in a higher being is what separates man from all other animals: I'm not saying that actual belief in God confers elevated status on any one person, merely the very fact that Man can have such belief is what demonstrates supremacy of our species.
Nonetheless, there is so much irrational about religion, especially islam. I am a lapsed christian but I appreciate the heritage and the moral foundation. After all, Jesus was not a murderer, rapist, pillager nor paedophile.

[alison]

The Koran and Islam dont make seperations. They dont seperate religion, from politics, from a way of life. Sharia Law being one example. (Islam needs a reformation desperately).

Examples of Jew hatred from the 'sacred' Islamic texts, sira, and main early Sunni historiographical accounts, include:

- Koranic verses labeling Jews as malevolent enemies of Islam (5:82), and
- disobedient slayers of their own prophets who suffered justifiable abasement (2:61),
- including, for some, transformation into apes and swine (5:60); or
- the more profoundly hateful narratives (in the hadith, sira, and early histories, for example by Tabari) which maintain that the perfidious Jews fomented sectarian strife in early Islam by promoting heresies—including Shi’ism itself—that threatened the unity of the Muslim community (umma), and

- the canonical hadith (Sahih Muslim Book 026, Number 5431) that the Jews caused Muhammad’s protracted, excruciating death from poisoning.

Georges Vajda observed, these archetypes, in turn justify Muslim animus towards the Jews, and the admonition to at best,

“subject [the Jews] to Muslim domination”, as dhimmis, treated “with contempt”, under “humiliating arrangements”.

These hateful motifs remain vibrant and NORMATIVE in the Muslim community.

From: http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5833

[Cunningham]

Alison,

>>The Koran and Islam dont make seperations. They dont seperate religion, from politics, from a way of life. Sharia Law being one example.>>

The Bible and fundamentalist Judaism and Christianity dont make seperations. They dont seperate religion, from politics, from a way of life. Leviticus being one example.

There are countless exhortations in the Old Testament to massacre - including of women and children, ethnic clensing, pillage and murder.

And according to the Bible, you should be stoned to death for the language you used against Daytripper a while back (Lev. 24: 10-16) !

[Neal]

merely the very fact that Man can have such belief is what demonstrates supremacy of our species.

Um...how does that work, exactly? One might easily argue that such a belief contradicts the idea of human supremacy.

[Allan@Aberdeen]

Does an ape have the capacity to believe in a higher being? Probably not. Nor does an ape have the capacity to understand the function of silicon transistors.

In responding to Alison, Cunningham wrote:
"And according to the Bible, you should be stoned to death for the language you used against Daytripper a while back (Lev. 24: 10-16) !"

Again, Cunningham is found wanting. The central point here is that Alison won't be stoned to death, not for her language nor for anything else. However, in the muslim world (and I read of a woman who had been stoned to death in France), women are stoned to death, and there are regular public beheadings.

[Allan@Aberdeen]

The above was me.

[Peter]

Allan posted:

"I'm not saying that actual belief in God confers elevated status on any one person, merely the very fact that Man can have such belief is what demonstrates supremacy of our species."

All it demonstrates is that we have a superior intellect to the rest of the animals that we share this planet with. We also have a sense of self which they lack.

It may be that our brains are hard-wired to be receptive to religious ideas, which may have given our ancient ancestors an evolutionary advantage.

[observer]

ho hum, more people have been butchered in the name of Christianity than any other religion, lets lock up the christians first shall we

[Allan@Aberdeen]

Will someone please tell observer what year this is? For someone whose 'handle' is observer, he/she is not very observant. How many have been butchered in the name of islam THIS CENTURY?

[observer]

Allan, the christians are still killing people today, its called a war on terror,except IRAQ had no connection to the so called terrorists that "attacked" New york

These are the new crusades, kill the muslims grab their wealth. same story - different century

[Cunningham]

>>Does an ape have the capacity to believe in a higher being? Probably not. Nor does an ape have the capacity to understand the function of silicon transistors.<<

LOL, you don't know what you're talking about, Allan. Just because it can't do two things doesn't mean those two things are related.
An ape also isn't able to fly by waving its arms. Is ability to fly with your hands distinctively human?

>>the capacity for belief in a higher being is what separates man from all other animals<<

Nonsense. What separates man from other animals (in this sense, but there are others) is his capacity for thought and planning. The belief you refer to is merely one of the many results of this capacity.

>>Cunningham fails to grasp the fact that, for a muslim, the koran is the faultless, immutable word of allah ...

On the other hand, the Bible is a narrative and is not considered to be perfect by Christians<<

Bullshit.
The Bible is considered perfect by very many Christians and parts of it by very many Jews. There were times when people would go to jail rather than, say, take an oath, as they thought this conflicted with the Bible.

Now most Christians/Jews ignore large bits of it for a wide variety of reasons and, mostly bitter, experience. One central reason is, however, their relative economic prosperity and, above all, their freedom to achieve same.

The Koran is also taken literally by many Muslims and treated with doses of salt (or the arabic equivalent. cardamom?) by many others. Like the Bible.

Much of the Koran was ignored for centuries, much of it is also ignored today; e.g. the "good" parts are ignored by Jihadists.

Believers in these religions will basically take from these books what they want, depending on their needs at the time.

>>The central point here is that Alison won't be stoned to death, not for her language nor for anything else.<<

Oh, it's getting so boring correcting all your mistakes and misunderstandings, Allan (sigh!)

Alison had said, if you read it, that the Koran makes no distinction between religion and way of life.
I pointed out to her - suprise, suprise - that the Bible also doesn't.
Now what could that mean, I wonder?

Also, a central point of the film in the link is that Muslims are inevitably ABC because of what it says in the Koran.
The Bible also has its fair share of nonsense.

ERGO: (now read this slowly)
Whether a society is fanatic/mischevoius or generous/tolerant or whatever will depend not on what is in their holy books but on whether and how those holy books are interpreted at the relevant time and place. And that in turn depends on that society's self-image, political situation, the changing world, its wealth, and a host of other things that are betimes beyond our ken and almost entirely beyond our influence.

[MrSmith]

Cunningham,

Quoting Leviticus at Christendom is really so very near the absolute height of stupidity as to be almost unbelievable. Leviticus is the Old Law, no Christian follows it or has done for hundreds of years. Compare with Sharia law which, dating from some age which isn't even medieval, is still practiced in the 20th and 21st century. Now, telling anybody that the two are synonymous in such terms is simply ridiculous.

On a seperate note, I noticed something interesting when looking at the video just now. Beforehand I couldn't hear the audio, so I was just going off the subtitles. Now, however, I've noticed something interesting. The narrator, in these first few minutes that I've seen thus far, is only going to be investigating the possibilities that it is either a result of Israeli policies or a transportation of Nazism to the ME. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the moslems themselves. Oh, and apparently moslem anti-semitism has its 'roots in medieval Christendom'. And we Christians wonder why everybody hates us...

Question, does anybody know where this documentary was originally shown? The tone suggests al-Beeb to me, but I'd like to be sure.

[Cunningham]

>>Leviticus is the Old Law, no Christian follows it or has done for hundreds of years<<

Listen, dummy, this very site is awash with people who call themselves Christians and who regularly cite the OT, including Leviticus, to support their prejudices on many issues, especially their hatred for homosexuality, their love for the death penalty, etc.

When you say no Christian follows it or has do ne so for hundreds of years, you are just further unveiling your stupidity.

They "follow" the bits of it they like, and ignore the bits they don't like.
Which was exactly my point.

[Frank O'Dwyer]

Peter,

We also have a sense of self which they lack.

Actually I read somewhere that chimps etc have this (e.g. recognise that their reflection in a mirror is not some other chimp, but them). Similarly dolphins.

For comparison human children do that at about 18-24mths.

[David Vance]

Cunningham,

The first sentence in your first post is correct. The rest is irrelevant.

Maybe we will discuss Mosaic law, because Mr Smith is quite right, but not on this thread.

The topic is APES AND PIGS.