THE CHALLENGE TO THE NATION STATE...

Mark Steyn has a very thoughtful article here, highlighting the pan-Islamic challenge to the idea of the nation state. Perhaps the killer facts in the article are these;

Seven percent of British Muslims consider their primary identity to be British, 81 percent consider it to be Muslim. By comparison, in the most populous Muslim nation on the planet, 39 percent of Muslim Indonesians consider themselves Indonesian first, 36 percent consider themselves Muslim first. For more than four years now, I've been writing about a phenomenon I first encountered in the Muslim ghettoes of the Netherlands, Belgium and other European countries in the spring of 2002: Second- and third-generation European Muslims feel far more fiercely Islamic than their parents and grandparents.

Mark is right. The deadly dilemma facing the West, and Europe in particular, is that it has a large and growing YOUNG Muslim population that has little loyalty to the idea of the Nation State in which it resides. Worse, the EU itself has little loyalty to the Nation State and hence many (myself included) believe it will take the advice of Sweden's Minister of Democracy Jens Orback who whimpers...

"We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us."

Sure Jens. We all know how tolerant Islam is. Dhimmi.

Trotsky had it right; "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you"

Our best defence is to protect our Nation States by confronting and defeating militant Islam. I don't believe that the EU has this capability - and I sometimes wonder if even the US does. We all had a chance to support a Nation State fighting a non-State Islamic actor when Israel took on Hezbollah. Which side won? Was THAT a vision of the future? Did any Nation States oppose the ceasefire that gave Hezbollah the psychological "victory"????

I saw many placards at a demo in London protesting at the UK's support for Israel in the early days of the war against Nasrallah's goons. They read "WE are Hezbollah." And that's where the loyalties of some lie - even in the UK. We have an enemy within, and we must defeat them, crush them, humiliate them. Or they will do it to us. It's simple.

Comments

[Hugh Green]

DV,

Which is more important to you - being Christian or being British?

[David Vance]

Hugh,

Good question. Here's the answer.

"Render onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and onto God the things that are God's"

I am a British subject and accept the responsibilities and rights of such. Christ's kingdom is not of this Earth, though I hope one day to see it.

Separation of Church & State presents the ROP with a teensy-weensy problem - they don't accept it!

[dangerouslysubversivedad]

I dont know why you think its Islamism which is the biggest challenge to our national identity. The EU has been deliberately trying to wipe out all European national cultures since its inception, and its had far more success than the Islamists.

[David Vance]

DSD,

No, you are quite right about the EU but the EU does not seek to kill us if we takre issue with them. (Not yet, anyway) I guess the deeper point is the combination of Islam and EU.

[Peter]

The EU is now experiencing a reaction against the federalist project, as the referendum defeats in France and Holland showed. The accession of the former-communist states will increase the opposition to federalism, which is widespread in every member country, not just the UK.

[dangerouslysubversivedad]

Peter,

I wish I shared your faith in the former eastern bloc countries. But I think they were so demoralised by all those years of communism that like sheep given an open barn door they simply went looking for the next barn instead of enjoying their freedom.

And the referendums whilst welcome have become a side issue in many ways. The EU is pushing ahead with every single aspect of the rejected Constitution regardless of that rejection and politicians in all European countries are sitting back and letting it happen. Especially the bastards in ours.

[Peter]

DSD, they are bound by the old EU constitution until the new one is ratified, which will be never.

I think there is a widespread reaction throughout the EU against federalism. The referendum would have been lost in both Germany and Britain if they had dared to hold it.

As for the eastern countries, the Poles, Czechs and Hungarians courageously resisted the Russians for 50 years after WW2. I don't think they'll let themselves be governed from Brussels.

[daytripper]

Seven percent of British Muslims consider their primary identity to be British, 81 percent consider it to be Muslim. By comparison, in the most populous Muslim nation on the planet, 39 percent of Muslim Indonesians consider themselves Indonesian first, 36 percent consider themselves Muslim first. For more than four years now, I've been writing about a phenomenon I first encountered in the Muslim ghettoes of the Netherlands, Belgium and other European countries in the spring of 2002: Second- and third-generation European Muslims feel far more fiercely Islamic than their parents and grandparents.

the majority of indonesian muslims are likely to me indonesian. the majority of british muslims are 1st 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants of an entirely different racial background to the indigenous british population. its not a good comparitive study. and comparison should be made with other european nations.
therein lies the flaw. more french muslims consider themselves french first than british muslims do british.

its a testament to the secular foundations of the french republic. and shows that the failures of integration here are to do with the christian (or slightly less secular) foundation of the british system.

remember always that integration requires TWO willing partners, for it to work.

[Peter]

DT, Britain is at least as secular as France, in its culture if not its institutions. The reason that French muslims feel more French could be due to the fact that most of them hail from North Africa, whereas most British muslims hail from Pakistan.

A more useful exercise would be to compare British muslim loyalties with those of British west indians. Both ethnic groups have been here for roughly the same length of time, but I suspect that in general the west indians will show much more loyalty to Britain, because their religion does not discourage them from doing so.

[daytripper]

i would contest the argument about secular comparisons. but i agree that a comparison with other immigrant groups within the same nation would be beneficial.

[Ernest Young]

When comparing W.I. settlers and Pakistani setlers, it might be well to consider that the former have a similarly based chrisian culture to ourselves, while the latter have an Islamic based culture.

That multi-culturism is not a working model, should be patently obvious, particularly when the two cultures involved have been at each others throats for a long time, and, while having a few similarities in common, the overall concepts and aims are diametrically opposed. Not least being the respect for all other human beings, and that would include the female of the species.

Regarding attitudes to the Nation State, the negativism is hardly confined to immigrants, afer all, many of our finest academics and politicians are very opposed to any concept of loyalty to the Nation, branding anyone who does having feelings of pride as being xenophobic, 'little englanders',etc, etc, and even as fascists, all thanks, I believe to the push for the European dream.

That such an 'anti-nation' mantra rubs off on our impressionable younger generation is hardly surprising. It isn't just the muslim youth who are easily re-programmed. They do have the excuse of having originated from countries which always have, and still do, have a strong national identity, whereas we have little encouragement to feel pride in our own national culture.

We English don't even have our own parliament!....

[RottyPup]

Daytripper wrote: "More Fwench Muslims consider themselves Fwench ..."

Blah. Blah. Blah. Here's the thing: Islamopaths warm to countries that: (a) Their evil death-cult totally controls, or, (b) Their evil death-cult can intimidate into submission.

When Fwench Muslims look into the eyes of their non-Muslim countrymen, they see fear, surrender and a willingness to like Islamic boot-leather.

When 'British' Muslims look into our eyes, they see courage, battle and a growing willingness to kick Islamic backsides so hard even the camel fleas which inhabit them jump off.

'Why do Muslims hate us?' you wail. Simple: We. Will. Not. Submit.

[Colm]

rotty

You're getting back to your barking mad best!

[RottyPup]

Indeed. I thought the camel-flea quip was almost as good as the jokes I used to make about the destruction of St. Jean's brain.

But, look here, Colm. Much as I enjoy tormenting you, my quarry on this occasion is DayTripper. Where'd he go? Hmm? Don't leftists sit up drinking beer on Friday nights like normal people? Oh. Wait. He probably has to apply a facial scrub, spend an hour sitting cross-legged going 'Ommm', then toddle off to bed to dream of muesli and world peace. God, what sad lives these people live.

[Colm]

Rotty

I am sure daytripper will respond to your tormenting once he's finished his muesli. Perhaps the 2 of you could meet up and share an organic ozone friendly fairtrade beer together ;)

[RottyPup]

"organic ozone friendly fairtrade beer"

Impossible, I'm afraid. The only beers drunk at Puppy Mansions are stuffed with synthetic chemical compounds, pressurized with the kind of ozone-destroying gasses that would make Al Gore wet himself, and manufactured by African slave-labourers under the threat of a brutal lashing if they fail to ferment the hops on time. What's more, we buy our Beer-Of-Death exclusively from Aldi Stores, just for that extra 'FU lefty snobs' warm feeling.

Cheers!

[Colm]

What is so politically incorrect about ALDI's ?