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August 30, 2006

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joc

Dave,

I gave up my subscription to the Irish Times in disgust at how anti-US and Anti-Israel it had become. There are some excellent letter writers, but overall, the intolerance of the liberal slant to the paper is very troubling.

It is also seriously disturbing how much the Irish seem to be so besotted with the UN/EU line to politics.

David Vance

joc,

Yes, I also wonder at this Irish media bias. It's the same, of course, with many British newspapers and even the likes of Northern Ireland's Belfast Telegraph delights in its anti-Israel bias.

Maybe hating Israel whilst being besotted with the UN/EU line is a comfort blanket to some...but it saddens me and disgusts me in equal measure.

Peter C Glover

Perhaps I might be able to help Gavin (aged 5 and a half?) a little.

You see Gavin, Hezbollah is a TERRORIST organisation and Israel is a DEMOCRATIC state. There is no moral equivalency here. When the terrorist state starts a fight it is the duty of democratic governments who are attacked to defend itself. You do remember freedom and demcoracy, don't you? Well try explaining it to terrorists...

Armaghlite

Yes it does seem anti Israel - but such a letter would not be out of place in the Guardian. The is anti Israel Bias everywhere.

Becuase this example comes from the ROI rather than the UK does it mean anything. If anything there is more tolerance and goodwill generally in Ireland than in the UK - You would never see RTE behave outrageously towards Israel as the BBC have.

David Vance

Armaglite,

I think my point is that it is typical of a genre, rather than a country. It would indeed by typical of the Graniard! But that said, it is in this morning's Irish Indie.

Monty

A foil hat is on its way to Gavin. Clearly he has problems reading and must rely on those cosy moments sat at Uncle Yusuf's knee in front of a roaring fire listening to tall tales of how the world is.

If the dozy prat had stopped a moment to check his facts he would realise that the UN is going there to replace the Israelis. There will not be any naughty Joooos in southern Lebanon to be disarmed.

Still, with the ludicrous and slanted reporting on Israeli matters it is no wonder ignorant terrorist huggers like Gavin miss the point or try to twist the truth to make the Israelis look like aggressors. The IT in publishing that make themselves look equally stupid.

Cunningham


This is the third time in about 12 hours that that hoary old "anti-semitism" jibe has turned up on ATW - as usual without even an attempt to justify or provide evidence to support it.

It is merely assumed to be just by virtue of the accusation, and the obedient herd of sheep stumble and bleat their tired way behind it.

In fact, the haste with which an "anti-Israeli" stance is turned into an "anti-Semitic" accusation is for me proof that there is a sneaky appreciation for the political position and an understanding, even among the most benighted contributors here today, of where such an opinion could come from.

Cunningham


>>proof that there is a sneaky appreciation for the political position ..<<

On second thoughts, I take that back.

It's rather proof that the docile dummies don't have a shred of argument to put against the criticism of Israel and have to grasp at the anti-Semite straw to save them.

A lazy argument for lazy minds indeed.

So, what evidence is there that criticism of Israel in RoI is based on aversion for the Joooos.

And how specifically is that letter anti-Joooo?

David Vance

baaaaaaaa

Colm

Some people on the right bandy the term anti-semite about with the same lazy consistency as some on the left do the word racist. It is done to stifle dissent rather that deal with specific points of debate.

David Vance

Colm,

I hope you are not suggesting that moi is one of those people? I choose my terms VERY carefully....

Colm

David

I have to be honest and I do think you have a tendency to use the term for critics of Israel's policies where it cannot be proven that the criticicsm is motivated by hatred of Jewishness. It is clear that the writer of the letter above does not approve of Israel's behaviour but can you from his letter really justify the post title "Irish anti-Semitism.

Cunningham


Well said, Colm.


David,

>>I choose my terms VERY carefully....<<

Very carefully? Very cowardly, I would say.
First you come out with the bold headline assertion of "Anti-Semitism", but then already in the first sentence of the post itself you have retreat behind the much safer "anti-Israeli".

Baaaaaa!
You're not going to pull the wool over the eyes of anyone clear-headed.

David Vance

Cunningham,

Good last line!

Made up for the nonsense written beforehand.

Colm,

Anti-Semite and anti-Israeli are the same. Only liberals pretend otherwise. The guy's comments in the letter concerned were scandalous, even hinting the Jews killed JRK. I make no apology for what I say on this - and the words are calibrated as I see it.

Cunningham


>>Anti-Semite and anti-Israeli are the same. Only liberals pretend otherwise.<<

Oh, surely not only Liberals, David!
What about all those ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel who are against their state's policy of expansion in the region?
And that huge Israeli anti-war movement, are they also against the Joooos?

On the other hand, many notorious anti-Semites were supporters of the state of Israel - including many leading Nazis.

I also rather fancy that many of the most vehement suppoters of Israel's Arab policy also personally dislike, or at least are indifferent to, Jews, including many notables on this site. They see Israel merely in its role as a bridgehead of the West in the region, and they admire its readiness to use force, its racist-sectarian ethos and its belief in the virtues of war over diplomacy.
Above all, they like it for getting stuck into Arabs Muslims.
However, confront them with a group of traditional "Joooos" in some international airport, for example, and you'll get a different picture.

In short, they are more motivated by hatred for the perceived enemies of Israel than by love for Israel or its people.

daytripper

well said sir.

The guy's comments in the letter concerned were scandalous, even hinting the Jews killed JRK.

wasnt there a mossad plot to kill Bush snr.

Colm

Cunningham

Good post. It is too simplistic to equate anti/pro Israel with anti/pro semite. There are many hardline right wing fundamentalist Christians in the States who support the state of Israel for reasons of what they see a biblical prophecy but who would take a very cool and unfriendly attitude to mixing or working or socialising with Jewish people and conversely there are many people who oppose Israel for reasons that to do with their general stance on global power politics but who have no animosity to Jewish people at all.

mahons

Letters to the editor come from kooks of all opinions, many of whom don't realize the outlet blogging would afford them. I wouldn't hold the paper responsible for letters from the readership. That being said, you probably could have drawn from countless articles from that particular publication which would come close to mirroring that reader's views.
I agree with Colm and Cunningham to the extent that anti-semitism is often charged when someone criticises Israel. It is a vile hatred, and using it as an automatic defense against ALL criticism of Israel diminishes the charge. Israel is as capable of screwing up as any other government. I would also point out that much of the international criticism of Israel (including the letter writer) incorporates anti-semitism. It is especially troublesome to those who recognize that the issues are not remote, but life or death.

Colm

I think a lot of the more unjustified and excessive criticism of Israel is motivated not by anti-Semitism but by a world view which divides countries into 'Western powerful opressor nations' and 'disadvantaged oppressed nations' and Israel is placed into the former camp.

Cunningham


Well said, Colm.

mahons,

You are right in AS being >> a vile hatred, and using it as an automatic defense against ALL criticism of Israel diminishes the charge. <<

But you are now the 5th person on ATW today (the others include Monica of Philladelphia...) who accused someone (the letter writer in your case) of anti-Semitism but did not justify the charge.

Wanna have a go.... ?

mahons

Cunningham:
Allow me to point out that I said the letter writer "incorporates" anti-semitism as opposed to accusing the letter writer of anti-semitism. The personal prejudices of the Smith's of Clontarf are unknown to me. I may be located on the same U.S. eastern seaboard as Monica, the Belle of Philadelphia, but I am not necessarily aligned with her worldview.
I think the lititany of allegations of the letter writer (exposed by our host Mr. Vance) demonstrates a bias. Is bias bad in and of itself? No. But does it excuse an individual from an objective presentation - I don't think so. The tie in with the Kennedy assasination would make Oliver Stone blush and is the type of unchallenged insinuation that I believe is representative of anti-semitic claims.
How's that?

mahons

Cunnighma:
Where For Art Thou?

Colm

mahons

I'm sure he'll be back to reply soon.

mahons

I confused his Wanna have a go? for I got to go.

Colm

maybe he's still lacing up his boxing gloves ;)

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