From the Kirk to the Bog

A really interesting thread has opened up on Slugger concerning a piece written by one Adam Maguire on what concept would underpin the position of the pro-Union people in Northern Ireland in the event of Scottish separatism.  The Horsemen of the Provocalypse (such as Stephen Copeland - who wishes to take a wrecking ball to the former home of Edward Carson just because my co-blogger, David, has signed the petition calling for its preservation; as indeed have I.  Quick, grab the baby-grow) are positively salivating at the prospect of Ulster's Unionist majority (which is considerably more than the 55% sectarian demographic so touted by Oirish separatists) being effectively left high and dry by expressing fealty to a Union that, in traditional terms, could no longer exist.  I will come to the ramifications for Northern Ireland later, but for now I wish to concentrate on the fanciful hullabaloo accompanying the alleged rise in support for Scottish independence.

Conor Murphy, IRA terrorist representative for the sludge of South Armagh, has made a similar analysis.  The dissolution of the entire United Kingdom remains an aspirational goal for many Irish republicans, even though it is rarely mentioned.  The objective is to deprive the Northern majority of their birthright by default, as well as some delusional historical rectification under the guise of 'celtic solidarity'.  Having failed to achieve the former by killing, lies, propaganda, economic arguments, bombing, bonking and communal unrest, the last hope for Irish republicans lies in the perceived intentions of the Scottish people.  As one of the republican cheerleaders on Slugger has said, 'Irish unity will be struck in Edinburgh, not Dublin.'

OK, let's start with Scotland.  The chances of an independent Scotland outside the United Kingdom are zero, zilch and pie in the sky.  The entire social, cultural, political and economic life of that part of the Union is closely tied to its remaining constituent parts.  Like several Scottish Tories who have called for a border poll, I am firmly of the believe that a referendum on separatism would be overwhelmingly defeated.  As for the guff about 'Scottish' oil, I have to point out that, as well as being of decreasing necessity to the rest of the UK, the question of oil reserves is an erroneous one.  The unwritten constitution of the UK vests sole sovereign authority with the Westminster Parliament - a position also recognised in international law.  As is the case with Northern Ireland, Westminster can ultimately choose to grant independence to Scotland or not.  As the territorial seas of the UK, in which the oil platforms are located, also come under the sovereign aegis of Westminster, does anyone think Parliament would be so stupid to grant Scottish independence together with the surrender of rights to oil recovered in what were previously United Kingdom waters?  Don't be so stupid!  If the oil reserves of the North Sea were of primary importance to the UK's energy supplies, there is no way Westminster would give up the sovereignty of the North Sea to a newly-independent country.  North Sea (not 'Scottish') oil is either of huge economic importance to the whole UK, in which case it would remain part of the sovereign remit of Westminster; or it is not, in which case the argument for an oil-rich independent Alba falls at the very first hurdle.

However, just supposing the UK did fall apart.  For Unionists, the territorial entity is Northern Ireland.  Although the membership of the Union for that territory is of massive importance to each and every British person in Antrim, Armagh, Down, Londonderry, Fermanagh and Tyrone, it is not as important as preserving the Unionist identity and raison d'etre.  Part, and only part, of the underlying fundamental of Unionism is a resolve never to become part of the Irish Republic.  Nationalists can pontificate for eternity their usual soundbites of 'increased influence for Unionists in a dynamic economy of 4 million people', and all the rest of the rubbish which makes not one iota of difference to the Unionist people and their preferences.  The fact is that Northern Ireland would remain part of the resultant United Kingdom of which Scotland would no longer be a part.  If Wales too went its own way, the choice for Ulster's majority would be as an independent entity.  And do not think, for one second, that many people would not be willing to create that independence in the most rigorous possible way - as tragic as it could be in human terms.

Comments

[Madradin Ruad]

Sinn Féin 1979 :

"We declare that we desire our country to be ruled in accordance with the principles of liberty, equality and justice for all, which alone can secure permanence of government in the waling adhesion of the people." (Democratic Programme of Dáil Éireann, 1919).
To ensure ownership by the people the following basic principles apply:
1. The wealth of Ireland belongs to the people and is thefts to be exploited and developed in theft interests.
2. To ensure justice for all, the means of production, distribution and exchange must be controlled by the people and administered democratically.
3. The state will have complete control over the import and export of capital.
4. Finance, insurance and all key industries must be brought under public control. The principal agent of major development in industry, agriculture and fisheries must be the democratic institutions of the people.
5. All mineral resources belong as of right to the entire people (nation). The extraction and processing of such resources shall be nationalised or taken into community control.
A national exploration programme to monitor continuously in a coordinated and planned way the extent and potential of our natural mineral and energy resources would be established.
6. Land is a natural resource to which there is no absolute title by any individual or group of individuals short of the entire nation. It must be utilised and controlled in the interests of the nation in the form of family or co-operative custodial ownership.
An upper limit will be placed on the amount of land any one individual may own. Limits on ownership should relate to the productive capacity rather than acreage. Large ranches and estates will be taken over and leased to groups of families to run on co-operative lines. Only resident citizens of the republic will be allowed to own, purchase or lease land within Ireland.
Building land will not be the means of enrichment of private individuals. It will instead be the subject of compulsory purchase by the state or the local authority concerned, at a price related to its agricultural value. The land will then be transferred by the state to the individual or body developing it. The owner will be compensated or given an option on an equivalent holding elsewhere. Ground rent will be abolished.

whee - see those investors flee :)

[Colm]

"Don't be fooled colm - it's the troll back again."

I did wonder, but you never know she might actually be someone else?

PS - Can't sleep ?

[JoJo]

"well, well - how long before "gerryadams1@yahoo.com " comes clean as to who she is ? ;)"
I'll give you one clue, I'm not Gerry adams ;-)

"Don't be fooled colm - it's the troll back again."
If I've stated anything that could be considered in the realm of 'trolling' please point it out. But the comments which followed my inital comment would be more telling as to who here would be considered 'troll-like'.

"It'll go like snow off a ditch - especially if SF are brought into government and are their economic policies are followed LOL"
I fully agree with you in regards SF policies and the effect it would have on investment, but you seem to be of the impression that it is enevitable that the ROI will end up as it was regardless of SF in government or not. I'm not stating that the ROI is going to be this healthy forever, but I'm not the one jumping to conclusions. Please supply some information that you used to come to this conclusion.

[Colm]

JoJo

Mad thinks you might be

http://jopoliticsnsociety.blogspot.com/

[Madradin Ruad]

Wrong Colm . I recognise JoJo's style - come on JoJo - tell us all what other names you have used here :)

Madradin Ruad,

Your economic observations are as daft as your rants on other matters.

Was Nigeria the second wealthiest Nation on Earth? With growing infrastructure, stable democracy and some of the highest education levels in the world?

No - and you make yourself look extremely stupid with the comparison of a European democracy and what was a newly independant African country with various different factions / tribes and no history of democracy or rule of law.

MR - grow up. You choose to be called a name which translates into english weather you realised it or not when you chose it) as Red Female Dog.

YOu only spew hate and hope for economic collapse of ROI - Why do you hope for it? Would it make you feel better about yourself? Would it make you a happier/better person?

And Wealth doesn't dissapear like snow from a ditch - it gets invested. Re-invested and put to work.

If you did your homework you would know that most Irish wealth is invested in London and on international stock markets.

Have you been to Dublin lately? Have you ever dared visit the IFSC ? Perhaps it would be too galling for you. Or perhaps the train fare would be too much to spend from your benefit.

The boom will end, as they always do. The property market may even have a hard rather than soft landing - But the billions invested in housing, education and infrastructure in the last 10 years can never be undone and the 6 north eastern counties Ulster will never achieve what ROI has - even with the Billions recieved from Britain each year (which they are now seeking to reduce)

You blind jealousy is a fantastic thing to watch.

Fantastic.

[Colm]

Mad

Oh right, now I get you - are we back to kitty again ?

[Madradin Ruad]

SG - How can the widening gulf between rich and poor in the ROI be deemed social advancement ?

[DublinLee]

When Sinn Fein get into govt in Dublin you will win the argument.

You obviously know nothing about Irish politics if you think that will happen. Bertie has said he will go into coalition with Fine Gael before Sinn Fein - given those reason you listed - thanks for that.

SF support has reached 10% and stayed there for some time. It is not moving above that.

ROI is not NI - you actually need a majority to govern here - and with no willing partner. SF are going nowhere.

Continue to hope though - its enjoyable.

[SG]

Mad,

I was referring to the kind of things they have done in recent years like allowing Divorce, contraception etc.
There seems to be a lot less people doing what their priest tells them to in the south these days.

Where i'm from that is Social advancement.

I'll believe you on the rich / poor thing but i'm not that up on it.

[Madradin Ruad]

Ah, the anonymous rant :)

[Madradin Ruad]

DublinLee arrives :) What fun - all these "new" faces LOL

[DublinLee]

Perhaps you would prefere it if there were only people who shared your view of the world????

LOL.

[JoJo]

"come on JoJo - tell us all what other names you have used here :)"

You see, you've backed yourself into a corner here. If I were to honestly tell you that this is my first time here, you would not believe me.
Why don't you try and debate with what I've asked, instead of trying to find out the impossible of trying to 'uncover' me, as I've never posted here before. If there is anyone in admin, can you please do this guy a favour and tell him that my IP address does not match with any that's been on this site before.

[Madradin Ruad]

SG - I agree in some ways about the state becoming secular - but the problem is that the state was so dominated by the church that now the church has lost controy it's a free for all for all the crooks, thugs and shysters - a bit like what has happened in eastern Europe with the collapse of their "church" ...Communism. Their School system is tearing itself apart over the abuse issue, organised crime is having a field day, Policing a total mess, tribunals trying to sort out corruption, plenty of nouveau riche and plenty of money being salted away out of the country, ordinary people aren't so tickety boo, exploitation of workers - apart from the schools thing, just like Putin's Russia.

They can boast all they like about their "wealth". It's a shit-hole that makes even our local government look clean.

[aileen]

Adam

That is a resonable postion. Of course as a unionist I don't share it. I followed your link and saw the stuff you did on the Riots in Dublin and I think, like Hugh yiu are one of the good guys ;o)

[Madradin Ruad]

Oh - and how come the second-richest "nation" in the world has such an apalling health service ?

[Chris Gaskin]

Oh - and how come the second-richest "nation" in the world has such an apalling health service ?

It a criminal conspiracy involving the Israeli's, the Orange Order, Willie McCrea's left nipple and a flock of wild geese ;)

Come on MR, name one country that has a good health service? Please don't say the NHS because I will just laugh at you!

[Colm]

France ?

[Madradin Ruad]

How much of the 1979 policy document have SF abandoned Chris ? ;)

[Colm]

Since when has any party faithfully implemented their policy documents when in power ?

[Madradin Ruad]

What has that got to do with the price of diesel Colm ?

I'm genuinely interested in Chris' reply :)

[Colm]

Would that be illegally smuggled diesel ?

PS - You wouldn't believe Chris's reply anyway ;)

[Madradin Ruad]

PS - You wouldn't believe Chris's reply anyway ;)

Of course I would - as he know's I'm quite capable of e mailing their Ard Rúnaí to check !

[aileen]

Colm Sweetie, the convention is for political parties to wait until they are in power before ditching their policies ;o)