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July 28, 2006

Comments

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

If you had to choose between saving five one-day old embryos and one five year old child which would you pick Aileen?

aileen

Frank there is no point in me answering that if I don't beleive what I post!

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

I said 'really believe'. The belief that an embryo IS "a new person" doesn't mesh with reality. It only becomes apparent when you follow its implications.

aileen

How the hell do you know what people believe? That may be your theory but don't be so ruddy patronising. Beleive ot or not, I am intellectually capable of testing the implications of my beliefs.

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

Aileen,

How the hell do you know what people believe?

"How the hell do you know an embryo "is" a new person and that sperm and ova "separate" are not?"

Your claim is no less patronising. The difference is only that you have no evidence at all for yours and it even fails to mesh with reality.

I don't believe that anyone sincerely believes that an embryo is a new person unless maybe they haven't really thought about it, or they don't actually care about people. The evidence is that people who say they believe it never act like they do.

Madradin Ruad

Test-tubes don't have bosoms!

Madradin Ruad

If you had to choose between saving five one-day old embryos and one five year old child which would you pick Aileen?

That's horrible Frank.

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

What's horrible about it?

aileen

Frank

I beleive that a person starts at conception. How is that a patronising belief? It has nothing to do with you. Your comment was a direct accusation that I had said something that I didn't believe.

My evidence. is based on what I have been taught in biology.

I do care about people and for me a person starts when the cells start to split and my "caring" starts from that point.


"The evidence is that people who say they believe it never act like they do."

Very unscientific comment!

There are people who sacrifice themselves for their unborn child.

aileen

"Test-tubes don't have bosoms! "

Mad this is undoubtedly true but I'm not sure that I understand the relevance.

Or is this just a major truth that has just struck you and you needed to share it?
;o)

aileen

Mad

you're right it is horrible. A bit like asking me would I save 5 disabled people or an 80 yr old!

Madradin Ruad

Mad this is undoubtedly true but I'm not sure that I understand the relevance.

You need to tune into your male side!

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

A bit like asking me would I save 5 disabled people or an 80 yr old!

It is nothing like asking you that. THAT would be a genuine dilemma.

Whereas nobody would think twice about saving a five year old child vs five embryos.

aileen

Well Frank, if you have answered the question to your satisfaction and ignoring the logical consequences of the information given to you, why ask it?

aileen

I appear to be either a liar (saying that I consider that an embyo is a person), an idiot (I am incapable of considering the logical implications of what I beelive without prompting from Frank) or I am nobody (as I would have just as much of a dilemma over having to choose between 5 embyos v a 5 tr old as having to chose between saving 5 disable people over an 80 yr old)

Unless those 5 embryos were my five children and the 5 yr old wasn't.

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

Why are you tap dancing around answering it?

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

I appear to be either a liar (saying that I consider that an embyo is a person),

Or mistaken. Not unlikely since you think biology has something to say about when personhood starts, whereas one of the few things it has to say about it is that it is not at conception.

an idiot (I am incapable of considering the logical implications of what I beelive without prompting from Frank)

Or beating up strawmen.

or I am nobody (as I would have just as much of a dilemma over having to choose between 5 embyos v a 5 tr old as having to chose between saving 5 disable people over an 80 yr old)

Because, other things being equal, clearly running out of a burning building clutching a tray of embryos and leaving a five year old inside to burn is SOMETIMES the right thing to do.

aileen

I have answered it, it is too much of a delimma! Similarily I do not know how I could decide between other numbers of humans. Which would you save 5 disabled people or an 80 yr old?

ernest young

DOD,

You make so many straw men, you must live in a barn...

aileen

You are not a strawman you are a man that has patronised me by telling me that I do not believe what I do beleive.

If I didn't beleive it I would not have said it.

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

I have answered it, it is too much of a delimma!

It isn't a dilemma and that is the whole point! Most people given a choice between saving a tray of embryos and a five year old would think it wrong not to save the five year old. Always. Whether it is five embryos or five thousand, other things being equal, the five year old is always given prefernece because it is *really* considered a *person* and an embryo is not. You must feel faintly ridiculous even to call this a dilemma.

I'll also explain why your STATEMENT (not a belief) that an embryo is a new person is patronising. It is because you claim that this is something that anyone can find out just by opening an elementary textbook on biology. So we must all be idiots not to know that, right? Or worse, we *do* know it, and we just like the idea of experimenting on kids, is that it?

In fact not only is that claim BS, but if you believe it then you must think that doctors who practice IVF are the equivalent of Mengeles. You must also think that menstruation represents the biggest humanitarian crisis in all of recorded history, since it has disposed of more "children" than all of the wars ever fought and all of the volcanoes and tsunami that have ever been. WW2 would be a minor train wreck by comparison.

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

ernest,

You make so many straw men

...then it will be easy for you to point to a few.

No need to respond if you just made it up again.

aileen

Frank
Menstruation does not involve an embryo!!!!!!!

I have said that I beleive that a person starts as soon as the cells start splitting.

Why the hell are you asking me anything as you do not neleive my answers and you supply your own. Not your own for what you beleive but for what I beleive.

There is simply no point in having this conversation with you as I am not the best person to say what I beleive as you clearly have more knowledge of what I beleive than I do!

Colm

aileen

Frank really has got you going hasn't he.

I must say I do understand the concept of what Frank is saying but at rhe end of the day he should accept that some people have specific beliefs about life which are rigid in support of the embryo as a person as his are in believing differently

That Damnable O'Dwyer!

Aileen,

Menstruation does not involve an embryo!!!!!!!

Except when it does. Just not a live one.

I have said that I beleive that a person starts as soon as the cells start splitting.

Yes and you said you got this from "biology". So what about monozygotic twins? Where do the extra people come from?

And chimeras? Where do the extra people go?

How come IVF doctors aren't familiar with the same biology you are, or are they just evil? They'd have to conclude that what they were doing was the equivalent of Mengeles' experiments if they knew. And you must believe that such experiments are available on the NHS!

If you really did believe that I don't think you'd be so calm about it.

Why the hell are you asking me anything as you do not neleive my answers and you supply your own.

I'm not going to apologise for drawing the conclusions of what you write. After all you can always point to a flaw in my logic if it's wrong.

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