FAITH. HOPE AND CHARITY...

I was watching the media coverage of the terrible consequences of the Java earthquake and feel so sorry for all those who have either lost loved ones or who have been hurt by this natural disaster.

But I have a problem with the UK Government giving £3million in Aid, with a promise of millions more to come. From my perspective, this kind of Government Aid is morally wrong.

It merely allows politicians to posture as being ever so enlightened and oh-so-caring when in fact all they are doing is spending OUR money! I believe that acts of charity should come from the individual, not from Nanny the State. I think that the State giving financial aid to whom it wishes is demeaning to the general populace and devalues the act itself

The US has a great record of private charitable donations to all kinds of causes and this exceeds anything the US Government gives. From my point of view this is a much better model than the Statist "Government will give Aid on your behalf" mantra that pervades in Europe and here in the UK. If people sincerely care so much about a given catastrophe, let them give to it more directly. Why do they rely on Government to do their charitable acts for them?

Comments

[willowfield]

Without the £3m Government donation, there would be £3m less going to the victims.

Nice.

In democracies, governments are accountable to elected parliaments. If the people's representatives object to money being donated on their behalf, they have the means to stop it.

[David Vance]

Willowfield,

Are you saying that the people of the UK are less charitable than the Government? Also, can you tell me when we were consulted on how much money we wanted,as a Nation, to send to Java? Maybe it should have been more? Nice?

[Madradin Ruad]

David - one point - in the event of a catastrophe Government can give money and help immediately. Private collections etc take time to get organised and longer to deliver the goods.

[willowfield]

Are you saying that the people of the UK are less charitable than the Government?

No.

Also, can you tell me when we were consulted on how much money we wanted,as a Nation, to send to Java? Maybe it should have been more? Nice?

Ministers are questioned in Parliament on a regular basis. If the people's representatives believe that it is wrong to donate to such tragedies, the representatives can force a resignation and a change of government policy. Similarly, parties are free to stand for election on a policy of "no donations", be elected and form a government that would refuse to make such donations in the future.

[David Vance]

Willowfield,

IF you believe people are as generous as the Government, why do you not trust them to give? And if not, why not?

[Occasional Commentator]

The US people may be more generous than their government, but that just shows how tight their government is. In many European countries, Norway I think is one but many others too if I remember correctly, are more generous than the US per capita, in terms of individual and also government contributions to undeveloped and developing countries.

So the U.S. is a bad role model.

[willowfield]

IF you believe people are as generous as the Government, why do you not trust them to give? And if not, why not?

I do trust them to give, and nowhere have I indicated otherwise.

[David Vance]

A BAD ROLE MODEL? Really..

"Year after year, Americans are among the most generous people, per capita, in the world. During 2004, U.S. NGOs donated at least $6.8 billion to developing countries. Since comprehensive data on private giving are limited, estimating the total level of donations by private charities is difficult. The Hudson Institute, an independent organization, placed the value of total U.S. private assistance in 2004 at approximately $24.2 billion."

Care to compare this $24.2 billion with what Europe has privately given? How about with what oil-rich Saudi has given? Gimme a break - the US leads the way here by a country mile. They are a very generous people and they don't require Nanny State to give for them. Good on them I say.

[David Vance]

Occassional Commentator,

Have you got stats for what Norway has given in terms of aid to Iran? Or Afghanistan? Just wondering...

The US gave $24billion in 2004 in private donations. Care to compare that to what the Norewgian people gave?

[Occasional Commentator]

David, you'll note I said "per capita". It's easy for the USA to give lots of money because there's 200+ million of them. Compare the USA with the EU (or at least the more developed EU nations in the east and north which have a similar total population) and get back to me.

I'm a bit short of verifiable stats, but so are you. And you can't cherry pick some countries like Iran and Afghanistan. Either give us a detailed breakdown of every country or give us worldwide regional breakdowns.

Could you post a link to where you're getting the stats?

Thanks

[Occasional Commentator]

The U.S. (government and individuals/NGOs) were particularly stingy with the 2004 tsunami. Here are the figures.

I must point out that I believe every country gave far to little.

Anyway, I know the tsunami is just one event but those figures are interesting nonetheless - in the absence of any more comprehensive information.

[The Troll]

willowfield and her ilk believe that the money you earn belongs to the government to use as they see fit, they believe that the state can better take care of everything than any individual can evan if it concerns themselves... Damn Communist just don't get it. ITS NOT THE GOVERNMENTS MONEY governments don't make money they only steal it from their people.

[The Troll]

OC yes yes the US is stingy LOL alright we are serving notice All European countries now have one week to payback the financial debts that you still owe us from WWII, we won't even adjust it for inflation... Whats that it would bankrupt you Oh Well LOL

[Parsifal]

troll
"governments don't make money they only steal it from their people" that's quite subversive, are you feeling ok?

[Aileen]

Is Willowfield a her?

[David Vance]

Aileen,

Dunno. Willowfied - male or female or just pedant?

[smcgiff]

'male or female or just pedant?'

Now! Now! Children.

[Occasional Commentator]

If individuals were to make much bigger contributions (and I'm not saying I'm particularly generous myself) then there wouldn't be any need for a debate about government doing it instead.

Ordinarily, I'd be more inclined to lobby government for real fair trade than for increased aid spending, but individual donations are too low so we need to get governments to spend more.

I've just recently decided that 2.5% of one's salary is a reasonable target for most people. DV mightn't like the source for that particular arbitrary number - I recently discovered that Islam recommends this.

[ernest young]

Occasional Commentator,

How very generous of them! - doesn't the Bible suggest a tithe of some ten percent?

Percy,

"governments don't make money they only steal it from their people" - that's quite subversive, are you feeling ok?

You find the truth 'subversive', - how strange....

[Adrian]

Strictly with regard to Government generosity:

The US govt. gives around 55 dollars per head per year (down from 58 in 1990), just around 15 of which go to "least developed" countries. Sweden gives around 218 dollars and Norway around 388 dollars.

The UK gives around 95 dollars per capita, around 35 of which go to least developed countries.

You can see how much that really means in developing countries. When you divide all that by our population, Indians receive around 0.9 dollars per head per year!

[Adrian]

David,
I presume your figures are inclusive of the staggering amounts donated by Bill Gates and his wife. The two of them have donated 32 billion dollars to date.

Remove this couple and the US comes down to the level of several European nations.

[ernest young]

Adrian,

And your source for those figures is....

I have grave doubts as to their veracity, just who is doing the tally?

The debate was re the amount donated by the country as a whole. As we all know, the Americans give far more, and always have given more, on a personal basis than any other country.

The reason for the lower government donation, is that they generally do not believe it is a government role to do more than provide emergency relief, a point made by several other commentators. They are usually the first on the scene, and they do not make a 'song and dance' about how much they do, or don't do, they get on with the job while others, (the UN, French, Germans et al), are having assesment meetings, and generally getting their faces in front of TV cameras. How long did the UN sunami aid take to arrive? - four weeks...

The long term aid is provided by NGO's and International Charities, which are - yes! you guessed it - funded by private donation.

Your perpetual sniping at the US, is becoming very boring...

Just why should a largely prosperous, and economically expanding nation like yours expect to receive anything?

Your tone suggests that any donation is taken for granted and expected as, 'a matter of course'...one day that 'taken for granted' help may not be there, especially if the likes of yourself and others have their way and your hoped for US collapse actually happens.

Do you think the Chinese and Russians or N.Koreans will be as quick to help, and if they are, wil you want it?...

[ernest young]

Adrian,

And is not Bill Gates an American, and his business is largely as a result of the American system and 'way of life'?...

I don't see the Grand Panjandrum of Grabistan - or any other such name on the list of large donors...

[Adrian]

Ernest Young,
My figures are taken from the Human Development Report (Page 278 onwards) and are provided by the governments themselves but compiled by the United Nations Development Programme.

I got the point about government donation vs. private donations which is why I headed that post "Strictly with regard to government generosity." I have praised Americans for their private generosity on another thread and I know that the tax structure etc. in Europe are different from America which is one reason for their governments giving more in aid.

I have been following several of the arguments on this thread but thanks all the same for pointing them out to me.

[Adrian]

Ernest Young,
Bill Gates' generosity is his own personal generosity. He has donated one third of his fortune and there aren't too many other CEOs who've done that though the average CEO salary went up 27% in the last year to around 11 million dollars per annum. Face it, 90% of American industrialists aren't THAT generous or we'd be receiving more than 0.9 dollars per head per year. Incidentally most of India's funding comes from Britain (DFID) - around 700 or 800 million pounds a year I think.

When you say largely prosperous nation like ours I presume you're not thinking about the 350 million people who live on less than a dollar a day and the 350 million people who live on 1-2 dollars a day. I'm sure you're under the impression that the 0.9 dollars per head per year that the international community sends us is more helpful than it should be.