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January 31, 2006

Comments

Hugh Green

The British people in Northern Ireland are not an 'entirely different and separate people' from the rest of the island.

In terms of their nationality, perhaps, but this does not mean that they are

(a) 'entirely different'
If anything, most of the apparent differences are trivial. In many cases British and Irish in Northern Ireland have more in common with each other than they do with people from anywhere else. See language, accent, customs, interests, history etc.

(b) 'entirely separate'
This is also false. Many British and Irish in Northern Ireland live alongide each other, work together, and socialise together. There are lots of British and Irish families interwoven as a result of mixed marriages.

Andrew McCann

HG

I was talking in terms of nationality and historical allegiance.

Madradin Ruad

It's upto the ROI as to how they "celebrate" Pearse and co. The more OTT they are the better - as it reminds people here that for all the veneer of modernity the aim is still to have a Gaelic and RC Ireland. If they do want a new beginning, if they do want to build and Ireland of equals, then they'll leave Pearse and co where they belong - in the dustbin of History.
To some extent I suspect this is a sign that the ROI is floundering with it's identity - confused and frightened by the changes post Lemass and post Common market they are desperately trying to re-invent a coherent and continuous tradition. One thing is for sure - they cannot be both the Ireland of Tone and Ynited Irishmen and at the same time the Ireland of Pearse and Moran.

Ultonian Scottis American

MR:

This is similiar to the situation in the US.

We established our independance in a war with the UK that could only have happened with the support of southern states. This lead to the acceptance of slavery in the fledgling country.

We then fought a civil war, where the south was defeated.

The Confederacy was condemned by the North for behaving exactly as they did in 1776. Robert E. Lee's father was a Revolutionary War military leader and hero, who also signed the Declaration of Independance.

Since the end of The War Between The States, certain symbols of the Old South have taken on a life of their own.

The Confederate Battle Flag (St Andrew's saltire on a red backround) is used as a symbol of rebellion against authority in general, or smug Yankee elitism. And sometimes as an anti-black message.

Some southern states still celebrate a Confederate Heroes Day. But none call for a celebration of slavery, or a clain that "The South Will Rise Again".

Cunningham

"The aim is still to have a Gaelic and RC Ireland."

MR,
Who's aim today is to have an "RC Ireland" ?

What rebel in 1916 wished to establish an "RC Ireland"?

Cunningham

For "Who's" read "Whose"

Jacko

A surprising coherent article for a change from Mr Garland. It's a pity he was so dismally incoherent in his tussle with Brian Feeny on today's Good Morning Ulster.

Incidentally, what is it with this staccato type writing adopted by some Irish News columnists - not only does is it pathetic writing, it is as annoying as hell to read.

Jacko

Cunningham
Obviously Eamon De Valera as that is exactly what he did.

Madradin Ruad

Noel - the Easter Rebels had in advance sought the Blessing of the then Pope. It was a Gaelic RC uprising.

>Whose aim today is to have an "RC Ireland" ?
A Gaelic RC Ireland - those venerating 1916.

Cunningham

Jacko, Catholic Ireland was created much earlier. It was already very strong before the British departed (the 26 counties). Partition simply left the Free State with no sizeable Protestant counterbalance to prevent this popular piety being institutionalised. The position of the Church was then consolidated in the first decade of Independence, i.e. under DeValera's enemies.

Dev is an all-too-easy whipping boy. The old Irish Nationalists (much admired on this site) and certainly the Free Staters were much more beholding to the bishops than Fianna Fail ever was.

As for MD, I have noticed often how you completely (probably deliberately) confuse Gaelic Ireland, Catholic Ireland and Republican Ireland. They are three totally different things. In fact, the Catholic church was always a great enemy of Irish republicanism (even in 1916), second only to British imperialism, to which it was a natural ally.

In reply to
>Whose aim today is to have an "RC Ireland"?
MD answered
"A Gaelic RC Ireland - those venerating 1916."

So "a Gaelic RC Ireland" today intends to create an "RC Ireland" ????

This kind of thing shows you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Madradin Ruad

In fact, the Catholic church was always a great enemy of Irish republicanism (even in 1916), second only to British imperialism, to which it was a natural ally.

The hierarchy - yes, because of Church politics - but can you explain away Count Plunkett being despatched to Rome to ask for a Papal Blessing ?

Madradin Ruad

In reply to
>Whose aim today is to have an "RC Ireland"?
MD answered
"A Gaelic RC Ireland - those venerating 1916."

So "a Gaelic RC Ireland" today intends to create an "RC Ireland" ????

This kind of thing shows you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Sorry Noel - read again - I was correcting your misquote. I didn't write that anybody was 'intending to create an RC Ireland"

martin

MR,
You forget to mention that Jemes Connolly lived the last 15 years of his life an agnostic.

That Tom Clark and Sean mac Dairmada the real leaders of the rising were lapsed Catholics,

And that the bloke who went to Germany to acquire arms for the rebels Roger Casement was a Protestant.

martin

Not trying to be rude or anything MR--but this whole RC conspiracy lark is a load of rubbish--we of the R.C faith see people of the Protestant as just being mistaken in some of their beliefs--that is all--we have no interest in forcibly converting you lot or persecuting you---and to be perfectly blunt about it we really don't care what way you choose to Worship GOD.

Cunningham

>>I didn't write that anybody was 'intending to create an RC Ireland"<<

You did:

"..the aim is still to have a Gaelic and RC Ireland" (11:57)

(presuming that Catholic Ireland doesn't exist today, so if "they" want to have one, they'll have to create it)

>>Can you explain away Count Plunkett being despatched to Rome to ask for a Papal Blessing ?<<

Yes, I can. The rebels desperately needed two things: international support and national support. They tried the Germans, the US, even the Pope. It was thought that with some international recognition they would secure a place for Ireland at peace negotiations after the war. On the home front, obviously the Pope's blessing would have secured them at least some support from the Catholic population. That does not mean they valued it highly themselves. Ceannt and Plunkett probably did, but otherwise how many of the Rebel leaders were orthodox Catholics? Pearse's religion was unique and symbolic. Clark and McDermott were strongly anti-clerical. Connolly hadn't been near a church in years.

Actually, only four of the 7 signatories were married and of these 3 were married to Protestants. The prime movers of the whole enterprise - Casement and Bulmer Hobson - were also Protestants. Without the Dungannon clubs there would probably have never been a rising in the first place.

So MD, I think you're mixing up the Rising and Insurrection with the Resurrection, which Irish Catholics also celebrate at Easter time. An understandable mistake for an outsider.

Madradin Ruad

You forget to mention that Jemes Connolly lived the last 15 years of his life an agnostic.

Martin - You are wrong mate :)

Connolly died a Roman Catholic.

"In his biography of Connolly, Desmond Ryan emphasizes the important part that Pearse played in his final reconciliation with the Catholic Church. Pearse appealed to him to receive the last rites before facing the firing squad.21 When told that Connolly had agreed to do so, Pearse replied, 'Thank God. It was one thing I was anxious about.'22 Connolly's second-in-command, Michael Mallin, Secretary of the Stone-Masons' Union, also made his peace with the Church. While awaiting execution, he wrote to his wife urging that his daughter, Una, should be directed towards becoming a nun, and his son, Joseph, towards becoming a priest, 'as penance for our sins'. He consoled her that 'I do not believe our Blood has been shed in vain. I believe Ireland will come out greater and grander but she must not forget she is Catholic she must keep faith.'23"

Casement ? See page 511-512 of Jeffrey Dudgeon's book.

The only protestant I Know that was involved Hobson - a renegade Quaker - was placed under house arrest.

You keep trying to seperate the Gaelic and Catholic - They were part of the same package in 1916. "Faith and Fatherland"

What did de Valera go on to say about Ireland being a Catholic Country?


Madradin Ruad

"..the aim is still to have a Gaelic and RC Ireland" (11:57)

yes - Not an RC Ireland :) A very different thing altogether

martin

MR,
as you know there are no atheists in the trenches--we are talking about how the man lived his life prior to the rising--hence Pearses concern that he made a death bed conversion---so allegedly did Darwin.

IF YOU AREN'T IN,You can't win

Cunningham

MD
>>"..the aim is still to have a Gaelic and RC Ireland" (11:57)

yes - Not an RC Ireland :) A very different thing altogether<<

What's in that pipe of yours? That a logical contradiction.

Connolly becoming a Catholic on his deathbed, and the other anecdotes you quote, are irrelevant, as they are a matter of private conscience, not public politics, which is what we were talking about.

Madradin Ruad

Martin - Faith and Fatherland was what it was all about. Let's not forget that the Vatican itself only renounced it's temporal claims in the late 1920s.

martin

MR,
had it succeeded the bishops would have had much less a say than they did under De valera.

Tom Clark had been excommunicated in his youth.

Madradin Ruad

Have a read at Oracles of God sometime :)
Plenty of people who have been excommunicated still considered themselves Catholics - Henry VIII did ;)

martin

I havn't the interest--Im only a part time RC--I believe but I rarely attend--to my shame I might add.

Madradin Ruad

I'm sure God prefers someone like you to someone who attends but doesn't really believe :)

But Oracles isn't so much about the Faith or Theology - although as an outsider I found some of it fascinating - it's mainly about the relationship between Hierarchy, individual Priests and The Irish State.

paul connor

"What rebel in 1916 wished to establish an "RC Ireland"? "

" we are a Roman Ctholic Nation for a Roman Catholic people " - Eamon De Valera

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