WHOSE VIOLENCE PREVAILS?

There is no doubt in my mind that civil and religious liberty in Northern Ireland can only be guaranteed by widespread violence. Isn't that oxymoronic? I mean, since when has violence ANYTHING to do with liberty?

Well, that depends. Since 1997, and the establishment of the Government appointed quango - the Parades Commission - it is apparent that the right to process along certain roads and streets in Northern Ireland is established by whoever threatens the greatest level of violence. We saw this manifest at the Garvaghy Road in Portadown where republicans and nationalists threatened and real violence successfully managed to stop the Orange Order returning from a Church Service to mark the Battle of the Somme. Since then this depraved notion of "Whose violence prevails" has spread like a cancer across Northern Ireland.

I am disgusted by the violence that took place in Belfast last night and I think the hooligans responsible should be brought to justice. I note that the paramilitary groups that are linked to this mob rule are "still on cease-fore"! But the greater evil is the determination of Government to appease whichver group threatens the greater violence. Up until this point, in it's anxiety to appease the IRA, the rotten Parades Commission has usually decided that the Orange Order is less of a menace that all those "ever so concerned" nationalist residents groups. Hence the re-routing of Parades.

Suffice to say that I believe all Orange Order parades SHOULD be allowed so long as they are conducted in a respectful and dignified manner. The streets of Northern Ireland belong to us ALL - and one of the many malignancies of the "Good Friday Agreement" was to allocate ownership to various swathes of public highway to one group or another. Now we reap the harvest. Sir Hugh Orde's criticism of the Orange Order would mean a little more if he was not so enthusiastic to appease the IRA. Maybe those who complain about loyalist violence need to ask themselves: What fruits did Republican violence yield?

Comments

[Jo]

David,

While you obviously condemn the violence last night, as do any sensible people the syntax of your post above is unfortunately remniscient of so many other contingent condemnations over many years:

"I am disgusted by the violence... But the greater evil..."

I know the point that you are trying to make, I just am not sure whether the expression of the view can be put in a way which avoids the analysis I make?

[NAtionalist]

I like it - Loyalists riots and rampage. They shoot at the police and use homemade bombs and the gist of the article is "What fruits did Republican violence yield?"

No sectarian parades should not be allowed to go wherever they want. As people in this forum constantly say Freedom isn't free and this is one of the sacrifices the Unionist community has to make.

And just before some knee-jerking jerk starts spouting, the IRA are murdering criminal scum but simply because they are doesn't give any justification to the existance of loyalist violence.

[Declan]

DV,

Yesterday's violence had one purpose only: to provoke republicans back to violence. Then the OO and the unionist parties have their safety blanket of the Provo bogeyman back. At the minute, they're running about like headless chickens because the IRA pulled the rug out from under their feet.

Unionism and the scum that call themselves loyalists really showed their hypocrisy yesterday. After all their whinging about the reform of the RUC and disbandment of the RIR they weren't one bit behind the door in trying to kill members of those same forces. Jeffrey Donaldson and that odious little bastard Willie Frazer travel thousands of miles to South America to make a show of alleged IRA violence and what happens? An organisation that Donaldson is a member of is responsible for calling thousands of people on to the streets knowing full well of the chaos that would ensue.

[iluvni]

No, those who ask about 'Loyalist violence' are entitled to ask just who these 'Loyal peaople' are loyal too.
Never mind Republican violence...we know it's there because Republicans hate the very existence of Northern Ireland and will do everything and anything to destabilise and destroy it.

When these Loyalists combine with the Orange Order, the DUP and the UUP to attack our fellow citizens in the police and the Army, those of us who love Northern Ireland are entitled to seek answers from them.
Is their 'right' to get one over on the 'Fenians' and walk down a bit of road where they are in the majority worth the destruction and injury and deaths which they've brought onto our streets...and which has yet again shamed our wee country in the eyes of the rest of the UK. Do they give one moments thought to the rest of the citizens of the country who want to live in peace in Northern Ireland?
I don't for a second think they care.
Every year these braindead thickies have to put us all though it, for 4 summer months. How many fucking parades are needed past contentious areas?...every other week there's another one. It's tedious.

At least we got 3 days of feelgood factor here after Wednesday's result before the terrorists ruined it...London only got one after it was attacked in July.

[Madradin Ruad]

There's a number of points to be made here.

A bad example was set. Violence and rioting was rewarded in the past by concessions. That's a poor precedent. We are in a dangerous position - because concessions that would have to be made to loyalists will provoke nationalist riots and concessions will be made accordingly which will provoke further Loyalist riots.

Declan - what's the difference between SF saying there will be trouble if a march is allowed, the march is allowed and Nationalists riot and Unionist politicians saying there will be trouble if a march isn't allowed, the march isn't allowed and Loyalists riot ?

Your community have been working on this for more than 10 years. In 1997 Gerry Adams admitted that it was a strategem and he promised "And they are the type of scene changes that we have to focus in on, and develop, and exploit."

we are seeing the price paid as nationalists have focussed in on, developed and exploited
this issue.

[Madradin Ruad]

It's time Internment was introduced. The people organising these riots - in both communities - are known.

[Aileen]

David

I'm with you here. It is difficult to make the point without it being misunderstood. It is actually one of thise situations where I don't condemn people for misunderstanding your point (and not because you haven't made it well)

so I sort of agree with you too Jo. It's a really difficult call to make. Do you avoind telling the truth because it can be misunderstood or do you soft pedal it to the point of saying nothing because of the dangers.

Nationalist (you're the Tempo man/woman arn't you) I agree and disagree with you [not saying that you should give a damn ;0)]

I beleive in the right to march. Freedom isn't free but we don't pay for it with rights.

"the IRA are murdering criminal scum but simply because they are doesn't give any justification to the existance of loyalist violence."

I absolutely and totally agree with this!

Declan

yes the murders of the IRA made me feel really safe. Any one who can post so dismissively about IRA slaughter is a scumbag.
I totally condemn the violence and any attacks on the security forces (or anyone else). I also support Jeffrey and Willie's initiative in Columbia.

[David Vance]

Jo,

I accept your point of view - you know what I'm getting at but I can see that it is hard to put it across in this way without people thinking..."whataboutery"...

Oh..and as for certain other comments, I've made my views clear on loyalist violence and won't be lectured on this by ANYONE out there.

[Madradin Ruad]

SF were not a bit shy of shipping an Fhirinne to Europe as a publicity stunt.

[Madradin Ruad]

Cui bono ?

Coincidence that the IRA are trying to regain ground lost ( Northern Bank robbery, McCartney Murder, Critisism over failure to join policing, A murder in Dublin and FARC 3 ) by supposedly decommissioning when provoked riots focus attention on Northern Ireland ?

[Declan]

Wow aren't we all pent up today?!!

MR: Unionism sits on its moral high horse and calls for resolute action from both the government and the security forces. They unreseveredly condemn republican violence, and then turn around in the same breath and call thousands of loyalists on to the streets to riot. That's the difference. That's hypocrisy.

Aileen: you obviously don't know me very well love. I don't need a political party to think for me. You support Jeffery Donaldson going to Colombia to hob with South American right-wing militias and have the cheek to call ME a scumbag? Go back to commenting on Love Ulster you silly wench.

[David Vance]

MR,
Interesting- care to amplify your thoughts in that last post? Do you believe that other forces are contriving situations?

[Jo]

Declan,

That's uncalled for.

Its clear that no Unionist commentator here has done anything other than condemn the violence last evening. I almost lost my car in it.

Try and keep your manners, please.

[Jo]

"provoked riots "

..Paisley was threatening earlier in the week and there is evidence on Love Ulster website of co-ordination.

I hope the PSNI check peoples' ISP addresses on that site.

[Declan]

Jo,

Aileen implied that

a) I am a supporter of republican violence
b) ..and in doing so, called me a scumbag.

Where's your castigation of her?

[Jo]

"Unionism and the scum that call themselves loyalists really showed their hypocrisy yesterday. "

..generalised abuse begets abuse, Declan.
It stops now.

[Declan]

The difference is Jo, I did not personally abuse Aileen, but she chose to do so to me. Don't set yourself up as a referee on a matter that does not concern you.

[Aileen]

Declan

I know that you posted this
"Then the OO and the unionist parties have their safety blanket of the Provo bogeyman back."

It's all I want or need to know and I repeat - Any one who can post so dismissively about IRA slaughter is a scumbag.

I did not imply that you were a supporter of republican violence. You have not said enough for me to know.

I support victims of terrorism making connections and supporting each other.

I don't need a political perty to think for me and am no longer a member of one.

Jo

glad that it was just "almost". That must have been very frightening.

[Jo]

Aileen
It involved a very sharp reverse and u turn...!!!

[Declan]

Aileen/Jo,

First of all, I've went out for a walk and a smoke and I've cleared my head. I won't abuse anyone if the same courtesy is extend to me.

Aileen,

Down through the years the unionist parties have used the threat of republican violence as a excuse for loyalist terror. Republican violence has been minimal for the last 11 years, yet loyalists have continued killing with impugnity. James Molyneaux even stated himself that the IRA ceasefire was the bigger threat to the union that he had seen in his lifetime. Ask yourself why that is. For years, unionism called on the IRA to put down its weapons and join the political class, and when they did exactly that, Molyneaux describes it as above. Talk about fanning the flames.

The fact is that loyalism and unionism need violent republicanism to justify their existence. Without it, they are knocked off their moral high horse and exposed as the uncompromising, supremacist bigots that they are. I make no apology for saying that. How can the DUP refuse to sit in government with SF after it was one of the factors directly responsible for yesterday's loyalist violence? The sheer hypocrisy of it all is truly breathtaking.

Of course I condemn republican violence. I always have done. I criticise SF and the republican movement when I think they are wrong, and that has been often. The fact that the unionist political classes are not as swift to condemn and disown the violence from their own side, both from loyalism and the state, is quite telling, but not surprising, particularly after what we seen yesterday, where the parties had been lighting the touch-paper all week for this chaos. Its a bit like training a dog to fight, and then washing your hands of the consequences when it mauls someone.

[Declan]

Oh, time for the All-Ireland hurling final. Enjoy yourselves folks, and my apologies again for my comments to Aileen earlier.

[Jo]

Declan: Hope your side wins lol!

[Declan]

Thanks Jo!

Well, Its Cork Vs Galway, and I do have quite an affection for the west of Ireland....

[Jo]

..apart from the nastiness , last evening, a plane flew over my street VERY VERY low, with smoke belching from its engines....I was sure it was going to crash, had braced for the impact...but nothing..I can only presume it made it to the airport, but not a thing on the news today????

[Aileen]

Sorry folks this is going to be a long one

Declan

I am a unionist I need no-one to justify my existence. I am on my moral high horse as I have consistently condemned the IRA/UVF/UDA and their violence and have identified myself as having common cause with all their innocent victims, I am unapolegetically uncompromising and I wish that more had similarly not compromised principles of right to life etc. As for being a supremacist, I consider my side superior and wish it to prevail. The side I refer to is the side against the terrorists, a more important side than that defined by constitutional preference. As for being a bigot, well everyone says that they are not. I would ask you to pick any comment that I have posted on Love Ulster or here or indeed any other statement that I have made and justify any bigotry on that basis. Regarding your snide comments about my posting on that site, I was pulled up by someone because I had made a comment condemning "loyalist" terrorism and had failed to condemn republican terrorism. (But that comment was made before your cigarette)

As I said I was not implying from your statement that you supported republican terrorism, I was responding to the use of the phrase you used which I considered callous. I will however expand on my statement thus "anyone who can post dismissively of opposition to the IRA, without condemning it is a scumbag" and I haven’t had a fag ;0). I don’t think that you know me very well either and there is no reason why you should. If you did you would realise that a similar statement about the UVF would have drawn a similar response from me. Although I am usually more constrained in how I express myself. I am just in a particularly bad-assed mood to day.

I take it that the apology refers to "Go back to commenting on Love Ulster you silly wench." I accept your apology.

Re the hurley I was invited to the GAA by a poster on Love Ulster. I wonder if we could get a grant on the basis of promoting cross community understanding.