SOUTHERN DECADENCE

Writing on the always excellent WiresfromtheBunker, Peter C Glover makes a number of great points this morning on the New Orleans flood disaster - please ensure you read his full text here. I found the following extracts from Peter's post thought provoling!

"... I have also heard the usual whining: "Why does God allow this sort of thing to happen?" Well the answer is simple enough at one level: because stupid human beings build in delta areas below sea level and then do not invest in anything like substantial sea defences. God is not duty bound to cover for man's ignorance and stupidity."

Quite right. We have the free will to live below sea level, in the middle of an Earth-quake zone, beside an active volcano -  but we must accept the consequences of such bravado or folly!

Peter then takes things a step further when he says;

"But, in the case of New Orleans, another issue needs to be introduced for those of us who remain able to perceive God's hand at work in the world today: the immoral cesspit this city had undoutedly become. Perhaps, because of the sheer social acceptablity of it, the very worst in the USA.

Katrina struck New Orleans two days before the annual Southern Decadence  'celebrations' were due to get under way. What is Southern Decadence? Here is an excerpt from an article WorldNetDaily carried on 31 August which gives a feel for things:

"Hurricane Katrina walloped New Orleans just two days before the annual homosexual "Southern Decadence" festival was to begin in the town, an act being characterized by some as God's work.

Southern Decadence has a history of "filling the French Quarters section of the city with drunken homosexuals engaging in sex acts in the public streets and bars," says a statement from the Philadelphia Christian organization Repent America. "

Do we believe God had any hand in what happened at New Orleans? Well if we claim to believe that would God has spoken he means then only spiritual blindess  can prevent us from answering 'yes', given the evidence of unreprented sin the Scriptures that relate to them.
If we do not act against evil in our midst. Should we be surprised when God does? The Scriptures are clear enough.  As usual, we ignore them at our peril."

It may be tough love but should we not take time out to reflect on it?

Comments

[Mick]

Looks and smells and walks just like the opening salvo in a political blame war.

[Colm]

David

and you think such superstitious idiotic garbage is thought provoking !

So it's Ok for 'God' to punish the very old, the very old and the sick, because this moronic prick's warped morality has been offended.
This asshole is as bad as any mad Mullah.

[Shah]

On point # 1 I agree about questioning the lack of upgrades to levees, I see this as a substanative policy retrospective analysis. Yes this type of disaster had been deemed plausible and more could have been done to prevent it. As for point # 2 it's quite frankly the sort of crap I'd expect radical islamists to spew. If Islamists had said this you'd condemn it, but if a christian says it, then it's thought provoking. This site claims to be trans-atlanticist in oriention, but those credentials look quite doubtful now.

[FOOTIE]

So it's Ok for 'God' to punish the very young, the very old and the sick, because this moronic prick's warped morality has been offended.
This asshole is as bad as any mad Mullah.

[Calum]

I disagree with many of your posts and agree with others. This one, however, makes you sound like a complete moron. Or maybe that should be muslim. It sounds like you have more in common with them than you think. As for sex acts in public places, I disagree with anyone doing that, if it's even happening (your source is a christian fundamentalist). And even if it's true, I hardly think god's going to start raining down hellfire because of it. If god exists I think he'd have better things to do. Perhaps you need to take a reality check.

[Colm]

I agree

If some Islamic extremist had said 9/11 was the work of Allah punishing America for it's unislamic capitalist decadence David would rightly have said he was a hateful cruel fanatic - but then he isn't a CHRISTIAN hateful cruel fanatic which I suppose makes all the difference.

On another thread David spoke about being ashamed to be British, well he ought to be ashmaed of being himself if he admires the evil nonsense spouted above.

[Jo]

...So human beings are blamed for being stupid and the government isn't blamed for failing in its fundamental duty - to protect its citizens?

So Katrina is God's punishment...all of those who died were fornicators and sinful...even the young infants and children. There is none of God's love in this post - only Evil, malign and gloating as always.

Shame on you Peter and shame on you David.

Tough love? No, not Love at all. Evil.

[Hugh Green]

How come the hurricane didn't hit Washington? Doesn't God care about the horses anymore?

Lots of scapegoating going on here, as far as I can see. Seeing as people are getting all scripture-tastic, how about:

'Surely he hath borne our Griefs, and carried our Sorrows/Yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.' (Isaiah LIII, 4)

[Mick]

If this is a reflection of the right's latent arguments before they hit big playing field, then Bush and the Republicans are in a whole mess of political 'do-do'! In other words it's the ultimate expression of the politics of can't do!

[Mick]

Andrew Sullivan has it in one:

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2005_09_04_dish_archive.html#112586173780619930

[Peter]

I predicted this a few days ago. It was only a matter of time before the loony Christian right claimed the hurricane was divine punishment. What superstitious hate-filled garbage.

[David Vance]

Andrew Sullivan rarely gets anything in one. He's s moonbat these days.

[Peter C Glover]

It appears I would win no popularity contest among a strand of your readers, David. Thank you for your comments and link I had not meant to attract such vitriol from the nbiblical mind' (those that don't actually believe what Christ says and what the Bible teaches - and it DOES teach that the sins of others DOES sin affect the innocent as well as the guilty. Jesus taught this often enough. Indeed is a prime example of it!)

Of course, only those who can hear God's voice (and I mean in his revelation WRITTEN not apart from it) can understand and accept it. No doubt these guys would like to lynch me as well...such is the price of speaking truth to the closed mind.

For those in the know many theologians have made the case these past yeasr including the excellent James White, John Piper and many others.

That puts me, them, David and the Bible in the same camp...and the name-callers in another. But that's the liberal mind for you...what we might call the Pagan Right? or Pagan Left, if we were as they are?

Do feel no obligation to maintain the comments and link - these guys don't listen to Christ why should they witness to those who merely repeat his teachings?

[Jo]

Some of us listen to Christ, and theres no way we hear what you hear.

Theres no way that a loving Christ would say what you said or agree with you.

[Colm]

So that's David's response above to the criticism made of him - to have a dig at Andrew Sullivan. David's silence tells us a lot

Peter

You are entitled to whatever view you want -to believe in god's wrath if you will, but David has made a very big point on ATW of furiously rejecting and condemning the utterances of Islamic militants and their belief that the suffering of non-believers is Allah ordained . It is deeply hypocritical of him to give a nod of approval to such beliefs when uttered by adherents to another faith.

[Mick]

Fine argument David. Surely you can do better than that? ;-)

["Alice"]

I don't think God had anything against New Orleans. Hell, if He was really angry with mankind, there would be an awful lot of cities throughout the world being destroyed on a daily basis, for all types of crime against what God sees as goodness and light, donchaknow.

[David Vance]

Mick,

I have - I posted on this a few days ago - please check out "Breaking through Big Easy Spin"! I repeat that Sullivan has no coherent argument whatsoever and I would suggest that it is he, not me, who needs to do better.

Colm/Jo,

I repeat my 100% agreement with Peter :-)
I understand that Jo's anaemic form of Christianity is offended by the idea that God makes judgements. Jesus was no drippy hippy - his message makes it clear that those who turn from God will be punished. Of course that doesn't play well in a hedonistic society - so what? It doesn't make it invalid. Biblical truths are eternal.

[Peter C Glover]

For the record again Colm - and you really must read more carefully - I am not at all saying that 'the suffering of non-believers is God-ordained' in the same way that Islamist say Allah (a very different god does). Many that are adherents to the Christian faith - that is those who claim to be as well as those that actually are (because they obey God's Word)- will have suffered in this tragedy also.

Sin has a nasty habit of biting the innocent as well as the directly guilty. It has always been thus. If you are a Christian reading this how on earth can you square any other view with the destruction of jrerusalem by the Babylonians when God actually tell us plainly 'I did it!'.

The difference for Jews and Christians is that they know God has acted thus - and openly told us so - continually through history and in the OT. Jesus makes the link directly at Luke that the tower which fell and killed 18 Jews (perhaps beleiver and non-believer, innocent and guilty alike) was his Father's doing. Read it for youself. Try not to remain in wilful ignorance. Vs. 3 makes it clear that worse will become them if they too don't repent of their sinful ways (by turning to Christ and changing their ways). Vs 4 that the innocent will be caught up with the guilty.

Did he make the point that God had nothing to do with it? Or the complete opposite - use it as an example of exactly what God was doing in the grander shceme of things? Take your time...try and think about it for a minute...no rush...

I have no rpoblem that you reject my point and Jesus' teaching - but you simply cannot drive a wedge between them - that is, neither a reasoned and lofgical one nor a Christian doctrinal one.

Welcome to the real world of real Christianity - not the 'cardboard TV vicar' variety.

Or did Sodom and Gommorrah really disappear because they hadn't paid their rates?

I say again, God means what he says and, as Christ himself pointed out, the 'innocent' (in our times by the way, not in God's for we are all sinners) get caught up with the guilty. If it had been my family I would not say anythign different. Anything different would be a departure from Christ's own teaching.

[Jo]

David,

...that's a matter for your own conscience.

My "anaemic" form of Christianity, founded on Love, is obviously not to your taste.

[Colm]

David

So if an Islmic militant had said EXACTLY the same as Mr Glover you would have praised his thoughtful contribution.mmm methinks not.

" those who turn from god will be punished...

So when the final toll of bodies is collated we will discover they were all
(yeah! even the babies) fornicators , homosexuals and perhaps worst of all liberals!

In all honesty I don't believe you agree with Mr Glover's analysis. You are more level headed than that. It's just that like the 'ban the Burqa' posting, you know a good controversial thread when you see one :)

[Peter C Glover]

Thgere is just one important thing I have left out that does need saying. God is NOT the author. That is what may be confusing one or two of you.

The point is this. Where sin, either in personal lives, or in national life, becomes SO prevalent and 'decadent' (to us a key phrase here) it coincides with the fact that we or ournation have turned our backs on Gdo, his teaching, his blessing etc. All that sustains us in his common grace (sun, food, rain etc.) which we all share.

When this happens God, by our doing, releases his grip that holds back the vil which would naturally befall us if he did not hold it back. Thus we start to perceive the kind of evil which we 'naturally' deserve (given our innate sinfulness) be allowed to come to the fore. Thus natural disasters and even man-made evil ones (the Babylonian invasion, one nation 'smiting another', and 9?11, yes, 9/11 is often a national wake-up call - a necessary reminder that God is in control. By releasing his 'good' control by our sin, evil strikes - and affects the innocent and guilty alike.

It's is hard for a non-Christian to grasp, fait enough, but there really is no excuse for a paractising Christian to grasp what should be being taught (and has historically been the position of the historic church, by the way) for 2,000 years. Ignorance may be bliss for non-beleivers, it cannot be for believers however.

I do not ask you to believe me - I am a mere sinner to (though a belieiving one). But at least believe Christ and the Bible.

[Peter C Glover]

Sorry, that shoulod say 'not the author of evil'.

[Colm]

Peter

If you really want to believe that a conscious powerful entity 'made' the hurricane happen does that then apply to all disasters - The Tsunami, earthquakes, Cyclones in Bangladesh that regularly kill thousands in that blighted country ?. If, on the other hand not all disasters are 'punishments' how do you know which is which?

Whatever happened to the idea that god gave man free will and 'punishment' only occurs in the afterlife?

The Hurricane was nothing more than a phenomenon of nature. That Mr Glover is the real world. That is the only truth. Accept it. Not the cardboard 'vengeful hand of god' you fantasise about.